Losing Salvation

[Guest]

I don't follow these threads, and I do not wish to debate, but when listening to Steve give some valid points in support of a conditional salvation, several concepts came to my mind, which keep me from adopting his view. I would like for someone, maybe Steve, to provide an answer to my question.

If the Christian can lose salvation, it naturally follows that in order to "reclaim" it, he or she would have to be inbred or united with Christ's death on the cross, again and again. The Bible states that Christ is never to die again (Rom 6:9) and that the Christian has taken part in that same death (Rom 6:5). So . . . if the Christian has died the same death Christ died -- in every respect -- how could the Christian lose their salvation and have to die again, for the Bible says Christ never has to die again?

[Guest]

I don't follow these threads, and I do not wish to debate, but when listening to Steve give some valid points in support of a conditional salvation, several concepts came to my mind, which keep me from adopting his view. I would like for someone, maybe Steve, to provide an answer to my question.

If the Christian can lose salvation, it naturally follows that in order to "reclaim" it, he or she would have to be inbred or united with Christ's death on the cross, again and again. The Bible states that Christ is never to die again (Rom 6:9) and that the Christian has taken part in that same death (Rom 6:5). So . . . if the Christian has died the same death Christ died -- in every respect -- how could the Christian lose their salvation and have to die again, for the Bible says Christ never has to die again?

Hi

I'm not sure I follow you. What do you mean when you say "the Christian has died the same death as Christ? Also the Bible says Christ never has to die again, but where does it say people never have to die again?

Butch

[Guest]

Also the Bible says Christ never has to die again, but where does it say people never have to die again?

Butch

Hey Butch,

Yes, the Bible states Christ "is never to die again" (Rom 6:9). The Bible shows that "we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death," and that "our old self was crucified with Him." (Rom 6:5-6)

The Christian died the same death Christ died (look at the sentences above), was crucified with Him as Romans 6 shows; therefore, we too have the same privileges Christ has through His death, which excludes being crucified over and over again.

[Guest]

Benzoic,

Here's the way I see it:

Romans 6:1-14 (New King James Version)

1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2. Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4. Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6. knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7. For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11. Likewise you also, reckon (i.e. consider) yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

IMO Paul is comparing our pledge to Jesus (baptism), to Jesus' death and resurrection. Through the act of baptism we are united with his death in that we become united with him and receive the propitiation of our sins. We are now an adopted child. And like His resurrection to new life, so too, when we raise up from our buriel in water, we have a new life, leaving our old life behind. Notice that Paul says to "reckon" yourselves to be dead...."

If we fall into a life of persistent sin, we have a danger of losing the benefit of Christ's death for us:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (New King James Version)

26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

The writer of Hebrews tells us if we keep on willfully sinning, we are lost. "Dead", if you will; a dead child (but not totally unable ). But like the prodigal son, if we come to our senses, and come back to our father, He will forgive us.

1 John 1:9 (New King James Version)

9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That's my take on it anyway. (Ducking barrage of rocks thrown by Calvinists and OSAS, among others)

[Guest]

Benzoic,

IMO Paul is comparing our pledge to Jesus (baptism), to Jesus' death and resurrection. Through the act of baptism we are united with his death in that we become united with him and receive the propitiation of our sins. We are now an adopted child. And like His resurrection to new life, so too, when we raise up from our buriel in water, we have a new life, leaving our old life behind. Notice that Paul says to "reckon" yourselves to be dead...."

Hey Homer,

Maybe I'm missing something, but you haven't answered my question about being united, over and over, to Christ's single crucifixion. Are you saying, then, that the burden of sin that Christ died to--once for all--does not apply to us? That is, being united to the likeness or image of His crucifixion does not include dieing to sin once for all, as Christ has? If this is true, it seems that we have not really been united to the likeness of His death. How does one lose their salvation and die to sin once for all a second, third, or 20th time when they reclaim salvation?

Theoretically, which I know is impossible, but if Christ rebelled against God tomorrow, like Satan has rebelled, would the statement "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all" be revoked and rendered invalid?

[Guest]

So . . . if the Christian has died the same death Christ died -- in every respect -- how could the Christian lose their salvation and have to die again, for the Bible says Christ never has to die again?

When it says we died with him, and were raised with him, could it be that it is referring to a state of being instead of a time reference? For example, a friend of mine puts it this way: Christ's physical death was a once-for-all event in literal time-space, just as was His physical resurrection. The spiritual benefits extend to men as they appropriate it through faith in their generation. We did not have to exist in reality or foreknowledge for the benefit to be applied spiritually in our lives this century.

Think of two murderers on death row. One died with the other, but they did not die in the exact same spot (one chair) at the exact same time. Jesus died almost 2000 years ago. Through his death, all have died in some sense. Through faith, we are raised with Him and made to sit with Him in the heavenly places. If we were to apostasize, our position with him is affected, not His. We have eternal life through our union with Him and being in Him, as this life is in the Son. He is the source of our eternal life. Take a plug from the electric socket, and there is no longer any power or energy in the plug, yet the source remains intact.

[_Sean]

I don't follow these threads, and I do not wish to debate, but when listening to Steve give some valid points in support of a conditional salvation, several concepts came to my mind, which keep me from adopting his view. I would like for someone, maybe Steve, to provide an answer to my question.

If the Christian can lose salvation, it naturally follows that in order to "reclaim" it, he or she would have to be inbred or united with Christ's death on the cross, again and again. The Bible states that Christ is never to die again (Rom 6:9) and that the Christian has taken part in that same death (Rom 6:5). So . . . if the Christian has died the same death Christ died -- in every respect -- how could the Christian lose their salvation and have to die again, for the Bible says Christ never has to die again?

Part of the problem I have with forming an answer is the terminology you are using. I don't think salvation is somthing gained or lost or an "item" to be claimed. I believe salvation/eternal life is in the person of Jesus Christ and God the Father. Our eternal life is in His Son, He who has the Son has life (1 John 5:11-12). It would also seem that faith is what attaches us to Christ, as this is mentioned numerous times in the new testament. So it's not sin, in and of itself that would cause a "loss of salvation" but rather a loss of faith. If someone confesses their sin He will forgive us but if we stop believing then our faith has failed and at that point our relationship has been severed.

As far as Christ never dying again it says to consider yourself dead. You don't actually die but you are to put an end to sin in your "flesh". This is what Paul is saying in Romans 6:4-10.

But more importantly, we are told that faith can fail (1 Tim 1:19, Matt 13), apostasty will come (2 Thes 2) and branches that are grafted in or broken off by faith (Rom 11, John 15). These are all examples of loss of "salvation" since Christ is eternal life. It's not as if God gives us this gift of eternal life that is apart from Himself. He is eternal life, if you leave Him you don't get to take your "eternal" life with you, as if it's yours.

So my concern wouldn't be over harmonizing the passage you mentioned as much as it would be over believing the texts that state one can fall away from the faith. We are exhorted to stand firm in the faith and walk in the Spirit so the evil one does not cause us to fall.

James said:
James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

[Guest]

Benzoic---How does one lose their salvation and die to sin once for all a second, third, or 20th time when they reclaim salvation?

Benzoic,
How does one reclaim salvation? According to Scripture, once a person falls away there is no renewing them again,


Hebrews 6:3-6 ( KJV ) 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Singalphile]

There seems to be one verse that might refer to "losing" salvation: 2 John 1:8: "Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward."

That word is a form of apollumi. I'm not sure why "lose" was used instead of other common translations (e.g., "destroy", "ruin"), though there's probably a good reason since it seems to be the accepted translation.

There are verses that, in English, refer to "falling away" from God, faith, or grace. From what I can tell, there are 4 Greek words that are translated as a form of "fall away", parapiptó, aphistémi, skandalizó, and ekpipto.

The one quoted above, Hebrews 6:3-6, uses parapiptó, and that's the only place in the Bible where that word is used. "Fallen away" is not a very good translation, imo.

It seems to me that aphistémi can always be translated as some form of "withdraw" (not "fall away"), I think.

skandalizó can always be "cause or lead into sin", not "fall away" as it sometimes is in a few verses.

ekpipto could be translated as "fall away", but that doesn't work well at all in other verses, so it's more complicated. There is at least another Greek word for "fall" (empiptó, as in to literally "fall into a pit").

Anyway, my point is that I don't think that "falling" or "losing" salvation is the best terminology, even though it is true in a sense.

It seems that a person can withdraw from or renounce or abandon or defect from or cast away or reject the faith, that is, apostatize, and I guess that this happens rarely.

But related to Hebrews 6:3-6 (quoted earlier), does anyone know someone who seems to fit the description and who has comet back to God/repentance?

[Paidion]

Jesus said:

So ... whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:33)

When you became a disciple of Christ, you gave your life into His hands, and began to live your life thereafter for Him. If at some point your attitude is "To heck with this stuff!" and take your life back into your own hands, and live it for yourself again, you have undone your discipleship.

It's not a matter of "dying with Christ and becoming alive to sin" over and over. The term "dying with Christ" is a figure of speech depicting your "putting to death" your life of self-service and living a new life of service to Jesus Christ.