Tuesday Feb 26, 2008

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:28 pm

As I was listening to the recorded version of Tuesday's call in show I was struck by the first callers question concerning suicide. Where as I generally agree with Steve's answer a question came to mind when Steve spoke of suicide as a form of murder possibly. The question I thought of is in relation to this when Jesus said to pluck out your eye if it offends you and cut off your finger if it offends you. Not really understanding this concept completely (and remembering it was discussed many months ago on another thread) it begs the question that if your body offends you would this same principal apply? Now, I am not so silly that I would even cut my finger off let alone take my own life, but how do we reconcile these examples? Can one justifiably cut off enough of your body even unto death?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:04 pm

Not that this contribues much to your topic, Allyn, but it brought back a memory.

When I was a little boy, my mother and sister stressed what a wonderful place heaven is, and the importance of getting to heaven after death. So I suggested that we kill ourselves so that we could get there sooner. But my sister said that if we killed ourselves, we wouldn't be allowed in.

Post by **_Allyn** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:32 am

Someone made a good point (maybe on that Tuesday show) that we all die having committed one last sin. So I guess, is one sin worse than another? Of course I am not trying to justify any sin, but I do have compassion for the individual who takes his own life in that it must have been a terrible fight in his life to have finally come to that conclusion. Only God knows the heart of anyone.

So back to the OP, is Jesus saying that if a part of our body offends us we should remove that part even unto death?

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:16 pm

So I guess, is one sin worse than another?

Sorry to sidetrack your thread once again, but I just had to respond to the above quote.

There's no doubt in my mind that some sins are worse than others. So many people say they are all equally evil. I know, Allyn, that you are not trying to lessen the seriousness of sin by this suggestion. However, the effect of thinking of them as equally wrong may lead to thoughts such as, "I have been lying, and gossiping. So I might as well commit adultery with the woman who attracts me, and kill her husband while I'm at it. After all, those sins are no worse than any other."

But the fact that some sins are greater than others is indicated by our Lord Jesus himself:

...he who delivered me to you has the greater sin. John 19:11

Post by **_Allyn** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:09 pm

I guess my point in asking the question is that all sin results in physical death whether it be one or more. So if a person commits the sin of suicide then would that one sin cause a person to lose their salvation? I say this, of course, knowing our hope is in Christ and we are sinners though saved through Christ.

If a person commits suicide for any reason is that person any worse off in terms of salvation. I know that I cannot judge this but if there is a sin that Christ does not cover in our weakness (not counting the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit) then what is it? Is it suicide? Is suicide the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? And again, is Jesus saying we should cut off our head if it turns in a lustful way, for example, which of course would result in physical death?

Are any of you following me on this? Maybe this is way too silly to contemplate.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:57 pm

The view which I have heard expressed is that a person is in trouble if there is sin in his life of which he has not repented.

In the case of all other sins, there is usually time to repent. With the act of "successful" suicide, there isn't. After committing this sin, the next moment of awareness for that person is the judgment.

Post by **_Allyn** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:53 pm

And in your opinion the judgement for that person is what?

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:25 pm

Perhaps you mean "sentence". I think every non-repentant person will be sentenced for correction in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

Post by **_Allyn** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:39 am

But you wrote:The view which I have heard expressed is that a person is in trouble if there is sin in his life of which he has not repented.

In the case of all other sins, there is usually time to repent. With the act of "successful" suicide, there isn't. After committing this sin, the next moment of awareness for that person is the judgment.

But now you are calling it a "sentence". Isn't it true that in Christ there is no condemnation? Why then wouldn't the sentence be eternal life in Him as well?

Post by **_Suzana** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:45 am

Hello Allyn
you wrote:

Can one justifiably cut off enough of your body even unto death?

is Jesus saying that if a part of our body offends us we should remove that part even unto death?

And again, is Jesus saying we should cut off our head if it turns in a lustful way, for example, which of course would result in physical death?

I think the answer is yes, and Paul explains it this way -

Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness (which is idolatry),

Col 3:3 For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

OK, I know it's not meant to be literal/physical, and I know you know that too, otherwise I'm sure you would be willing to cut off your finger if necessary...

Regarding suicide, I haven't had a chance to listen to that program yet, but I for one wouldn't be willing to be dogmatic one way or the other, and place my confidence that God is a righteous judge, and knows the condition of everyone's heart.
As for the view that a person will be in trouble because they don't have a chance to repent - perhaps God will take into account whether they would have repented if they could have? Like for example if someone has a different sin they struggle with, and happen to give in to temptation just before they are killed in an earthquake or something...but would have genuinely repented if they had time.