jwitness

Post by **_glow** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:16 am

Hi
I have many folks that drop by my house to chat that are Jehovah witnesses. They seem very pleasant and genuine. I share time with them and enjoy some of the articles in the magazines they leave.

My questions are,
1. where exactly in scripture are their beliefs wrong by your understandings of their teachings. I haven't gotten into any areas so far with them where I really disagree with them, but than we haven't gotten into any thing that's really deep either. I try to be objective and respectful of their opinions.

2. Also do you see any red flags for me to be open to listening to them and sharing some time with them discussing scripture.

Thanks for any and all help.

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:51 am

Hi glow,
Just to start with they deny Christ Jesus as one with God but instead have called Him a god (John1). They say that in the beginning was the Word...and the Word was a god.

Secondly they are a works oriented cult thus not saved by grace but by works. June hunt (Hope for the Heart)had a wonderful radio program during the Last week of July all on JWs. She had as a special guest during that week a man who left JWs and became a true follower of Christ. I suggest visiting her web page and listen to the program archives for that week.

Here is the link for the program archives
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Hope ... chives.asp

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:17 am

They believe that Jesus is Micheal the Archangel.

2. Also do you see any red flags for me to be open to listening to them and sharing some time with them discussing scripture.

Well, no more than you would be "open" to listening to a Buddist, or Muslim. I think more along the lines of evangelism, when I am talking with them. I've devoted a lot of time to figuring out thier beliefs. I would recommend that you do the same.

They are most certainly a cult. Hands down.

Here's an article on thier teachings in a nutshell. (I'm not saying that they are all wrong. I agree with them on some things.)

http://www.carm.org/jw/doctrines.htm

God bless,

Post by **_djeaton** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:37 am

Like the Catholics and Mormons, JW's get their theology and doctrine from their denomination which is considered infallible. Yet they have made some predictions which never happened and changes in some of their teaching over the years. If you go online and print out some examples of how the JW "society" has reversed itself or made errors, you might be able to get them to start questioning what they believe. As long as they believe that the Watchtower Society is perfect though, you may as well beat your head against the wall.
D.

Post by **_Christopher** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:50 am

As long as they believe that the Watchtower Society is perfect though, you may as well beat your head against the wall.

Right you are DJ. This, more than their doctrine, is really what makes them a cult IMO. The authority of the Watchtower supercedes the authority of apostolic writings (scripture). This kind of mind control is mainly what distinguishes them as a cult.

Post by **_glow** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:09 pm

WOW Am i glad I asked this question!

I had no idea they thought Jesus was "a god", or an angel. Whenever they have been by we usually talk about the state of the world and what is going on in it and I have had really no objections when they have told me things will get worse etc. because I believe that biblically also ( state of the world worse).

One thing thy did tell me was scripture says the world will not be destroyed and a new one made.only the folks here will be but the planet won't, that I didn't agree with them on but quietly listened to what they said and why.

I don't feel comfortable enough in my self in pulling up scripture quickly enough to get into some kind of bible battle verbally with them.If I was personally more comfortable in that I would, and not as a battle as some I observe seem to do. But hopefully just in calm knowledge.I still struggle with this.

I have tried to show my faith in how I treat them and have told them from the very beginning I would welcome them in fellowship to visit etc. as long as they new I was not going to convert. I felt solid in my beliefs and I would share with them with questions they asked me etc.

And that has basically been how it has been handled so far. I have been able to give them hospitality and last summer.I had a pear tree so over loaded I was giving literally bushels of pears away and they were some I was able to give to. But I am very greatful for the web sites etc. you have given me and knowledge so far. if the chance comes up they get into that area I will have a better understanding of where they are coming from. Thanks again

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:24 pm

What identifies a cult (as I understand the term) is not their "false teaching" (all of us have "false teaching" by somebody's standards), but by their following a single leader, or central system, like little lambs, and without question.

I'll give you an example from a time when I was about 30. An older JW came to visit me, and tried to say that the Holy Spirit was was an impersonal force or power of God. He said, that the Bible had to use "he" when referring to the Holy Spirit, since there was no neuter in Greek.
I had already studied some Greek at that time, and so I knew this was not the case. When I said that there was a neuter in Greek, he drew himself up, and declared in a voice with all the authority in the world,
"Young man, the is no neuter in Greek". That seems to have been what he was taught. So I excused myself, went and got my Greek grammar book, and showed him that there was indeed a neuter in Greek.
I am sure that this evidence did not convince him. He had chose to believe the leaders of the Watchtower Association rather than the facts.

He was one of those whose attitude is, "My mind is made up. Now don't confuse me with the facts."

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:27 pm

Right you are DJ. This, more than their doctrine, is really what makes them a cult IMO. The authority of the Watchtower supercedes the authority of apostolic writings (scripture). This kind of mind control is mainly what distinguishes them as a cult.

I agree. Having incorrect doctrine, does not make one a member of a cult. This is something that Matt Slick at CARM seems to think. Although I think their theology is horrible, it's where their obdience lies (which is not with Jesus) that makes them a cult. I don't think a group is a cult becuase they explain the trinity differently than me (as Matt Slick seems to). His website is informative as to what the different sects believe though.

Post by **_glow** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:07 pm

I know this question may be a little off my original. But since some of you are speaking of cults Would the sheparding movement I was involved in during he early 1980s be considered a cult?

It was headed up by derek prince, don basham,and 2 other men I can't recall their names right now.In the churches the men were placed under one "leader" and you were to report or biblically share only with him directly and the wife or woman only spoke to her husband( who in turn only spoke to his leader) or only directly to your pastor/leader if his wife was also present.You were not to talk among yourselves freely.

It was kind of like a pyramid in fashion that they explained was the way Christs disciples were basically set up. I remember when one woman was starting to question it some of the men got together and they declared her a "witch" They were divorced not to long after that I believe by the woman.

It was a very difficult time but the Holy Spirit cleared it out in my mind.Needless to say through prayer and receiving from the H.S. my husband and I started to question it and met with some others and finally got the back bone to leave. We were new believers when we first got into it and it took a while as we read scripture to actually know how to question what we were experiencing.

It unfortunately hurt many folks spiritually. They also believed in the charismatic gifts and practiced them in a very structured system that still left us weary at times. Anyways, I know we all miss the point on scripture in some senses but would that still be considered a cult we were in because of the man under man setup and than the "covenant" churches were basically always reporting back to d. prince etc. The 4 men who started it.

I do want to add the four men did finally feel they went awry and made a formal apology to all the churches and most of them broke up.

I personally don't follow them anymore and I don't know what they do or believe. I also think because of my earlier experience spiritually I am a little timid some times on taking on biblical battles per say and have found other ways to try and share my Christian position, but I don't want to ever discredit who Christ is and what He has done in my life either..

Post by **_djeaton** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:38 pm

glow wrote: I don't feel comfortable enough in my self in pulling up scripture quickly enough to get into some kind of bible battle verbally with them.If I was personally more comfortable in that I would, and not as a battle as some I observe seem to do. But hopefully just in calm knowledge.I still struggle with this.

Arguing the Bible with them isn't very successful as a rule due to the fact that they are well trained in the "talking points" of what different verses are allegedly saying and have their own translation to back that idea up. Little subtle things like John 1 saying "a god" are just enough to "prove" their point. That is why you need to be able to attack the infallibility of the source of their truth, the Watchtower Society.
D.