Calvinist Romance

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Caption: "Have I died and begun my predestined eternity of torture in the hopeless abyss of hell, or are you just makin' me hot?"

From ship-of-fools.com
http://ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/captio ... l?c=10&i=0[/img]

[Guest]

“You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer- for the saints in prayer appear as one in word and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist.” [Charles Spurgeon]

Spurgeon went on to share what an Arminian prayer consistent with their theology might sound like:

“Lord I thank thee I am not like those presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many who will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me and others did not- this is the difference between me and them.” [Charles Spurgeon]

The apostle Paul was inspired to write this:

I Corinthians 1:26-31
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”[bold and underline emphasis mine]

[Guest]

Spurgeon's remark about Arminians at prayer reminds me of a comment made by A.W. Tozer (who was not a Calvinist), when asked whether he was Calvinist or Arminian. He said, "I am a Calvinist when I pray, and an Arminian when I preach." All Calvinists, that I have heard, preach like Arminians.

[Guest]

Steve wrote:

Spurgeon's remark about Arminians at prayer reminds me of a comment made by A.W. Tozer (who was not a Calvinist), when asked whether he was Calvinist or Arminian. He said, "I am a Calvinist when I pray, and an Arminian when I preach." All Calvinists, that I have heard, preach like Arminians.

Tozer is often quoted by Arminians and Calvinist's, but he is definitely not a Calvinist. He sounds like an Arminian to me.

Here are a couple of quotes I found:

"The attempt to answer these questions [those three questions raised in the passage above] has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other."
AW Tozer

and

Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, "What doest thou?" Man's will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.
AW Tozer

In regards to preaching like an Arminian. Do you think Paul was sure that his preaching would be fruitful or that he just hoped it would?

Acts 18
<<Acts>>
Paul in Corinth
18:1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus. 6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. 9 And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” 11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

In essence, God says "Keep preaching Paul. You can be certian "for I have many in this city who are my people.”

Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

In essence, God says "Keep preaching Paul. You can be certian "for I have many in this city who are my people.”

WHAT! That's not at all what he said in essence. Examine your own quote, the part which you bolded:

9 And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent,
10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.”
11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

The part which I have reddened says about as clearly as possible that Paul need not fear attack since God has many of his people in the city who will protect Paul from harm.

[Guest]

Paidion?

Are you going to tell me that as long as a city had some Christians in it, Paul didn't have ANYTHING to worry about? I bet Corinth was 90% Christians bro (please note my sarcasm here)! Jerusalem had many Christians in it. Was that a safe place for Paul to preach?

18:10 I have many people in this city. God had appointed a number of people in Corinth for salvation, who had not yet heard the gospel (cf 13:48; Rom. 10:13-15). The effect of Paul's preaching would be to bring the elect to faith (Titus 1:1). [The MacArthur Bible Commentary John MacArthur p. 1472]

I know, I know. Who in their right mind would consider anything John Mac says. Isn't he a murderer of God's character (more sarcasm)?

blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

Nice topic,
Although I definatley lean towards calvinism, I love Tozer. And i think that just because someone is a calvinist doesn't mean they should distance themselves from a man like Tozer. There is much to benefit from believers who have gone before even if they have different ways than ours.

Although it is very important to understand and have a belief as to soteriology, sometimes it is good to reflect on the psalmist words " I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me." Ps 131:1b

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pilgrim wrote:

Although I definatley lean towards calvinism, I love Tozer. And i think that just because someone is a calvinist doesn't mean they should distance themselves from a man like Tozer

I don't think carefully looking into an individuals theology and pointing it out is the same as distancing oneself from someone.

I am sure most Christians love many things about CS Lewis and enjoy reading him, yet they would not agree with everything he said.


Yes, God is so far above and beyond what our minds can grasp. And praise Him for that!

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

[Guest]

Maybe it would be helpful to look at how some other translations read to see how other scholars interpreted these verses. That is, does the "for I have many in this city who are my people" explain why Paul should "go on speaking and do not be silent" or does it explain why "no one will attack you to harm you."

In the first case, we could adequately write: "go on speaking and do not be silent, for I have many in this city who are my people." This must be how John Mac interprets the passage for his comment advocates that "my people" are the elect (who haven't been regenerated) and must therefore hear the word and hence be regenerated. I'm curious whether this interpretation is rooted in his understanding of Greek or in his bias toward Reformed Theology, namely election.

In the second case, we could adequately write: "no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people." The implications of this reading are not necessarily those that bighaasdog has concluded. Instead, this could simply be revealing to Paul that there are people in the city who are believers, yes, and have enough influence in the city to prevent Paul's harm. In other words, Paul didn't really know at this point how many had believed from his own ministry or that of Silas and Timothy. God is assuring him that many others exist that he is not even aware of and Paul will be protected.

Okay, so let's see some other translations of this text, Acts 18:9-10. Pay close attention to punctuation becuase it helps us understand how translators thought that certain ideas or actions interacted with each other in a passage.

NASB

And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent;for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city."

NKJV

Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.”

YLT

And the Lord said through a vision in the night to Paul, `Be not afraid, but be speaking and thou mayest be not silent; because I am with thee, and no one shall set on thee to do thee evil; because I have much people in this city;'

NIV

One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city."

The Message

One night the Master spoke to Paul in a dream: "Keep it up, and don't let anyone intimidate or silence you. No matter what happens, I'm with you and no one is going to be able to hurt you. You have no idea how many people I have on my side in this city."

Well, I guess The Message translation basically agrees with the second reading which isn't necessarily a consoling thought. Most of the translators it seems don't really want to commit to what the second "for" clause modifies or explains. The NIV and Message step out on a limb, though, and seem to advocate for the second reading. In my mind the second reading also seems to be the most plausible, i.e. "no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people".

Aside: I appreciate most of John Mac's commentary.

Blessings!
Lewis

[Guest]

Lewis,

The Message is not a bible translation, it is a paraphrase by Eugene Peterson. It may be usesfull in devotional times and such but should not be leaned on as far as word studies and such, it does not strenghten your arguement. In fairness, it does not necessarily weaken it either.