As I am reading revelations and John speaks that what he is writting are things from the past, current and future. So here I am reading Rev chapter 20 when I read this 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
I then recall this verse: Mat 27:51-53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now assuming that Rev 20 is speaking of the entire of church History, could the first ressurection have occured at Jesus ressurection, with the OT saints being raised to life and now live with Him in heaven?
Ok start the ripping apart my flight of ponder?
Jim
silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?
silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?
Last edited by _Jonathan J on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
It's possible, but I take the first ressurection to be fulfilled when a person becomes a Christian. Paul says we were buried with Christ at baptism and raised to newness of life at his resurrection. This speaks of a spiritual resurrection. Therefore, only those "born again" take part in the first resurrection. After the church age (or thousand years), Jesus will reuturn and judge each man according to his deeds. This, I take, to be the second resurrection and final judgement.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
JC wrote:It's possible, but I take the first ressurection to be fulfilled when a person becomes a Christian. Paul says we were buried with Christ at baptism and raised to newness of life at his resurrection. This speaks of a spiritual resurrection. Therefore, only those "born again" take part in the first resurrection. After the church age (or thousand years), Jesus will reuturn and judge each man according to his deeds. This, I take, to be the second resurrection and final judgement.
I appreciate what you are saying, but were not the OT saints also saved thru faith in the future hope of the coming messiah. Wouldn't that sort of make them OT pre-church era Christians?
Last edited by _Jonathan J on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Yes. The Kingdom of God existed in Old Testament times as well. We know this because Jesus told the Pharisees that the Kingdom will be taken from them (Israel) and given to a nation (the church) that will produce a crop. For it to be taken from them, it would have to have existed.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Jim from covina
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:22 am
HEY Jim..............That is one of those verses that has made me think a bit. Has helped my form my eschatology. Heres why.
I definitely believe that the writers (being very jewish) wrote much metaphor, to explain/define what was meant to THEM by Christ. I know this sounds very Bulttman/jesus seminar, but this is the main belief among religious studies people (you know, those that are called liberals, even though they study this stuff a heck of alot more than Us).
Anyways.......i think this did not happen literally, but metaphorically, to represent something..........??? (i think maybe you got it)
another JIm.
I definitely believe that the writers (being very jewish) wrote much metaphor, to explain/define what was meant to THEM by Christ. I know this sounds very Bulttman/jesus seminar, but this is the main belief among religious studies people (you know, those that are called liberals, even though they study this stuff a heck of alot more than Us).
Anyways.......i think this did not happen literally, but metaphorically, to represent something..........??? (i think maybe you got it)
another JIm.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Dear Brothers,
Much of what has been written so far in this thread seems to me as a fairy tale and as idle speculation. I don't mean to put anyone down; I just feel the need to express how I feel. If this offends anyone, I ask your forgiveness.
Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection of the saints, and presumably those who were raised shortly afterward. But that does not constitute the resurrection proper. That is merely the firstfruits.
When there is a harvest, the firstfruits is not the harvest. The main harvest follows later. After the main harvest there is a bit more, known as "the gleanings".
Paul clearly states that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that the harvest is the rest of "those who have fallen asleep" and those ones are "those who are Christ's at his coming." So doesn't the main harvest occur when Christ returns?
THE FIRSTFRUITS
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
THE HARVEST
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I Thessalonians 4:16 -16
THE GLEANINGS
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
True, the above passage deals mainly with the resurrection of the unrighteous who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But the bolded phrase seems to suggest that some of them, in John's vision, did have their names written in The Book of Life, not many, perhaps, but some. I understand that the resurrection depicted here will take place "at the end of the thousand years".
Much of what has been written so far in this thread seems to me as a fairy tale and as idle speculation. I don't mean to put anyone down; I just feel the need to express how I feel. If this offends anyone, I ask your forgiveness.
Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection of the saints, and presumably those who were raised shortly afterward. But that does not constitute the resurrection proper. That is merely the firstfruits.
When there is a harvest, the firstfruits is not the harvest. The main harvest follows later. After the main harvest there is a bit more, known as "the gleanings".
Paul clearly states that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that the harvest is the rest of "those who have fallen asleep" and those ones are "those who are Christ's at his coming." So doesn't the main harvest occur when Christ returns?
THE FIRSTFRUITS
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
THE HARVEST
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I Thessalonians 4:16 -16
THE GLEANINGS
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
True, the above passage deals mainly with the resurrection of the unrighteous who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But the bolded phrase seems to suggest that some of them, in John's vision, did have their names written in The Book of Life, not many, perhaps, but some. I understand that the resurrection depicted here will take place "at the end of the thousand years".
Last edited by _PTL on Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Jim from covina
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:22 am
HEY Jim.......just noticed your question re: o.t. saints being saved looking toward a messiah. hmmm.
Remember Jonah. Ninevites. SAVED. NOT looking to a messiah. Saved by repenting of wickedness and Evil. SO, for the many over-literalists, they should NOT say anything but that, otherwise they speculate much, which seems to happen alot. No messiah needed for Salvation.....at least in o.t.
Now, is that a biblical principle that many like to apply to various scriptures???hehehe
just a thought. trying to poke holes in the many inconsistent beliefs.
jim
Remember Jonah. Ninevites. SAVED. NOT looking to a messiah. Saved by repenting of wickedness and Evil. SO, for the many over-literalists, they should NOT say anything but that, otherwise they speculate much, which seems to happen alot. No messiah needed for Salvation.....at least in o.t.
Now, is that a biblical principle that many like to apply to various scriptures???hehehe
just a thought. trying to poke holes in the many inconsistent beliefs.
jim
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
My own personal understanding of Jonah and the Ninevites is that the city was spared Gods wrath not neccesarily the spirit. To say that no messiah is needed for salvation to me contradicts the hope of the coming messiah in the OT. It was this hope thru faith looking forward, while we are in a possition to look back.Jim from covina wrote:HEY Jim.......just noticed your question re: o.t. saints being saved looking toward a messiah. hmmm.
Remember Jonah. Ninevites. SAVED. NOT looking to a messiah. Saved by repenting of wickedness and Evil. SO, for the many over-literalists, they should NOT say anything but that, otherwise they speculate much, which seems to happen alot. No messiah needed for Salvation.....at least in o.t.
Now, is that a biblical principle that many like to apply to various scriptures???hehehe
just a thought. trying to poke holes in the many inconsistent beliefs.
jim
Last edited by _Jonathan J on Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reason:
Padion I do agree in principle of what you wrote here, but my question is could these versus you quoted only apply to the 2nd ressurection and final judgment. My speculation was concering the first ressurection and the saints who rule with Jesus in the millineum. Also I find just about anything pertaining to revelations and end-times speculative.Paidion wrote:Dear Brothers,
Much of what has been written so far in this thread seems to me as a fairy tale and as idle speculation. I don't mean to put anyone down; I just feel the need to express how I feel. If this offends anyone, I ask your forgiveness.
Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection of the saints, and presumably those who were raised shortly afterward. But that does not constitute the resurrection proper. That is merely the firstfruits.
When there is a harvest, the firstfruits is not the harvest. The main harvest follows later. After the main harvest there is a bit more, known as "the gleanings".
Paul clearly states that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that the harvest is the rest of "those who have fallen asleep" and those ones are "those who are Christ's at his coming." So doesn't the main harvest occur when Christ returns?
THE FIRSTFRUITS
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
THE HARVEST
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I Thessalonians 4:16 -16
THE GLEANINGS
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
True, the above passage deals mainly with the resurrection of the unrighteous who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But the bolded phrase seems to suggest that some of them, in John's vision, did have their names written in The Book of Life, not many, perhaps, but some. I understand that the resurrection depicted here will take place "at the end of the thousand years".
God Bless,
Jim
Last edited by _Jonathan J on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Jim from covina
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:22 am
Jim said
My own personal understanding of Jonah and the Ninevites is that the city was spared Gods wrath not neccesarily the spirit.
I dont understand what you mean.......
To say that no messiah is needed for salvation to me contradicts the hope of the coming messiah in the OT.
That may be the case...........but it wasnt the case for the Ninevites, so i dont know how you can hold that position......?
jd
My own personal understanding of Jonah and the Ninevites is that the city was spared Gods wrath not neccesarily the spirit.
I dont understand what you mean.......
To say that no messiah is needed for salvation to me contradicts the hope of the coming messiah in the OT.
That may be the case...........but it wasnt the case for the Ninevites, so i dont know how you can hold that position......?
jd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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