Birth Narratives

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_anothersteve
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Post by _anothersteve » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:30 am

I'm not a student of textual criticism by any means, but I am interested in learning about any challenges posed regarding the inclusion/editing of this passage, and others related to the story, that you know of.
Rick, as I read this section again it seems to me that a virgin birth is implied in the train of thought throughout Mat 1:18 to 1:25. Therefore, it seems that someone would need , in my mind, to show that this entire section was inserted at a later date.

Steve
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:05 am

i agree, anothersteve. the story itself indicates that Joseph knew he wasnt the father, presumably because he had not yet had relations with Mary.

That leaves the option that some other human was the father, or that she was overshadowed by the Most High, as the text states. i choose not to believe that she was raped by a roman soldier, as some have suggested. rather, it seems clear that there is nothing that would prevent Mary from conceiving even though she was a virgin, given that God can do what He wants. i agree with Paidion that the virgin birth was a sign (if only to mary and joseph) that the angels were telling the truth, namely that the child would be the messiah and "save the people from their sins."

TK
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:47 pm

Greetings thread posters, et al,

Editing is a handy feature to have on any forum...I just changed the thread's name. Though I still have doubts I understand what the Birth Narrative passages really mean; as I've studied them for hours this weekend I have had a renewed "confidence in the Scriptures" or something to that effect. This is hard to explain. But for anyone who has delved into deep Bible study (or perhaps has tried to to learn Greek, like I am)...you may know what I'm saying.

I felt that sharing ideas -- as opposed to -- overcoming doubts would be a better way to approach things. This shifts our focus toward learning and fellowship and is optimistic in outlook.

I'm supposed to be replying to you all, right? (said with a smile). Okay, I will...probably later this evening! :wink:
Rick
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:50 pm

Just lost my job today folks....will post soon...Rick

later that same evening

This is what I worked on all weekend:
Matt 1:18-25, "my" translation (still being revised)

1:18 Now, this is how the birth of Jesus Christ happened. His mother Mary was married by betrothal to Joseph, but before they had married in public, it was discovered she conceived in her womb from the Holy Spirit.

1:19 At this time Joseph her husband, a just and righteous man who was unwilling to expose her to the public, made the decision to divorce her discreetly and in private.

1:20 As he was contemplating what this could possibly involve -- Hey! Listen! -- an angel of the LORD appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David: Do not be filled with fear to go sieze Mary your wife, to take her to yourself to your own home and embrace her close by your side, because what has been begotten inside her is from the Holy Spirit.

1:21 She will have a son, and you are to call his name JESUS, for he will save his people from their sins."

1:22 Now, all of these things happened that they might bring into fullfillment what was spoken by the LORD through the prophet [Isaiah] saying,

1:23 "Hey! Listen! -- The virgin shall conceive and she will have [will bring forth] a son. And they will call his name IMMANUEL," which in translation means: "God is with us" [7Is14].

1:24 Then Joseph woke from his sleep, got up out of bed, and did what the Angel of the LORD commanded him and went and siezed his wife and took her to himself to his own home, embrasing her close by his side,

1:25 and he had no sexual intercourse with her until after she had her [firstborn, in some MSS] son; and he called his name JESUS.
This translation is at times very literal and at other times "thought for thought" and includes words that aren't in the Greek (which I didn't italicize). The "extra wording," so to speak, was needed to explain first century Jewish marrriage customs which even some "top-notch (multi-degreed) theologians" don't understand, lol.

I haven't forgotten y'all's questions & comments: thanx. (Will have notes on textual variants & more, soon...a good friend of mine died Saturday, funeral, job-hunting, etc.). God bless.
Rick
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_anothersteve
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Post by _anothersteve » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:30 pm

Rick, sorry to hear about your friend.
Please keep us updated with your work situation.

I look forward to your thoughts some time in the future. Please take the time you need now.

God Bless,
Steve
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:43 pm

edited Wed. 12/13/06

Thank you very much, Steve... and now I see Derek's... Christopher's ...and Michelle's posts, ty(all)vm. My friend was a Christian! ...so we know where he is. I'll have "evenings free" (soon) and will be back as time permits.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:44 pm

Rick,
Sorry about your friend brother. Hang in there. God is there!

God bless you,
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
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_Christopher
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Post by _Christopher » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:27 am

Hi Rick,

I'm praying for you bro. It's never a good time to lose jobs and friends, but it seems especially tough to take around the holidays. I'm very sorry for your loss and the trial of your employment.
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_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:01 am

I'm also praying for you Rick C.
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm

Thank you everyone for your prayers.
(I might have a job by tomorrow)....

Re: this thread
As you can see I've changed its name (again). I've been somewhat concerned about being offensive and/or becoming a stumbling block to new Christians. Borrowing from the 2 forum board descriptions:

(this one is):
Christian Evidences/Challenges
Do you have intellectual challenges to the Bible or Christianity?
and (another board is):
Misc. Essays by Participants
For those who don't have a specific question, but want to express themselves (We take no responsibility for the validity of the content).
Since I, personally, don't feel I have any real intellectual challenges to the Bible itself...(but rather, question the meanings of some texts)...I've wondered if this thread would be better under "Misc. Essays" (?). But the thing of it is: I don't have an essay to post! (Maybe I should just get a blog, huh?).

I really appreciate what has been discussed so far (which admittedly, hasn't been all that much due to events in my life & Christmas Season, etc.).

Once I get a job things will be back to as-usual and I will post more. Right now, I'm thinking a new thread @ "Misc. Essays" may be the way to go. I could start one on: "First Century Jewish Marriage Customs" by posting what information I have (and am still gathering)...and we could proceed from there as to what implications these may have on Matthew's or Luke's Birth Narratives (?).

For now, thank you (all) once again for your prayers.
In Christ: Merry Christmas!!!
Rick
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