For the one who is not against us is for us.

[Guest]

Mark 9:38-41
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.

Any thoughts on how the above statement of Jesus squares with the below?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

[Guest]

I guess in the first case "the Father's will" was being done but in the second perhaps it was for the glorification of the person performing the mighty work.

[Guest]

Shoel,

I copied your question to a Pastor named Robin Brace, creator and author of this christian websight:( http://www.ourchurch.com/member/m/museltof/ ) One of the things he has is a chance for people to ask him questions and he tries to answer it within 24 hours. Anyways, he wrote me back the following:

Hi There.
Re: your question I have decided I will write a brief article on your question. When the article is finished it will appear here:

http://www.ukapologetics.net/specific.html

The link will appear at the bottom of that page. However, my first thought is that there is no contradiction there because Jesus was talking about two different things. In the second text He is simply talking about false prophets/ministers who even claim to do miracles in His Name but really do not even preach the true gospel - this could certainly be applied to some of the prosperity teachers.

But in the first text Jesus clearly lays out a pattern for the coming New Testament Church - He shows - with quite remarkable clarity - that 'church' will not be just one organisation/administrative body! This gives us confidence that true Christians may appear in several denominations, or in no denominations at all. The disciples had assumed one organisational body for the Church, but Jesus rebukes them for this error! When I write the article in full, I will make further comments on this. Look out for it.

Robin

[Guest]

Hi Schoel,

I believe the passage in Mark probably shows that the man was a true disciple of Christ who both spoke and performed actions consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

For the second passage, I might compare Matthew 23 where Jesus speaks of the scribes and Pharisees sitting in Moses seat. While they taught scripture correctly, they did not follow it themselves. For the person sitting under their teaching the reaction could be different. The student could both hear the teaching and begin to assimilate it into their walk with Christ. I assume it would then be possible for the teaching Pharisee to be rejected from God's presence while the student may enter even though he had learned from an unfaithful teacher.

Those are 2 possible scenarios within the church--both giving authority to the scripture. The careful student can learn either way. There is a 3rd scenario and, I believe, the most onerous. That occurs when the teacher rejects clear scriptural teaching in favor of his own instruction or that of a misguided denomination. In that case, the sheep have no choice but to scatter.

I also tend to believe that a demon-possessed person who hears and believes the word and repents will enter the presence of God even if the Pharisee bringing him the word is not a sincere disciple. At one time, I would have thought such an idea ludicrous.

livingink

[Guest]

Is There Any Contradiction Between Mark 9:38-41 and Matthew 7:21-23?
Okay, let us look at these two Scriptures, (NIV throughout):

Mark 9:38-41 '”Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”. “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No-one who does a MIRACLE in My Name can in the next moment say anything bad about Me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in My Name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.”

('Miracle' is emphasised because it is the subject of the e mailers query).

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and in your Name drive out demons and perform many MIRACLES?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!'”

(Again, 'miracles' is emphasised because it is apparently the subject of the questioner's query).

Actually several questions arise here.

1. A Comparison of 'Miracles.'

First of all, regarding 'miracles' in Mark 9:38-41, these were genuine miracles done through the power of the Holy Spirit of God!

But in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus knew that their claim was erroneous and exaggerated: these were not miracles performed through the power of the Spirit of God. Either the miracles were fraudulent and dishonest claims, or if miraculous things really had happened, they had happened only through the power of demons! This might seem a little scary but the Bible makes it quite clear that demons can perform 'signs and wonders.'

See 2 Thessalonians 2:9:'The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.'

We can rest assured that nobody who performs a miracle through the very Spirit of God will be in rebellion against Jesus Christ – such a thing is just not possible! That would make God a house divided against Himself!

So the group in Matthew are fraudulent preachers and teachers who had claimed to be genuine followers of Christ and had – undoubtedly – deceived many, yes, perhaps even millions. Without doubt, such false teachers who change and pervert the message of the gospel into a different message about wealth and success in this present age could well be included in this group. But there are further questions here:




2. The Church Would Not Be One Instituition.

By refusing to forbid other preachers who knew the Name and Power of Jesus and of His Gospel but who had not been present with Jesus and the disciples, Jesus was revealing that the New Testament Church of God would not be just one organised, instituitionalized structure! In Mark 9:38-41 it is immediately clear that John had assumed that Christians would just be one organised grouping of people. Jesus was effectively saying, 'No don't expect that!'

Later on Paul carefully corroborated this approach: Carefully study all of 1 Corinthians 12.

Evangelicals especially need to understand that while certain things are essential: the correct gospel message, for example, it is possible to explain things a little differently and to still be genuine followers of Christ which is why the denominational system was not all bad. Not understanding this point, a few mistakenly continue to long for 'Christian unity.' BUT THERE ALREADY IS CHRISTIAN UNITY since there is only one Body of Christ.

Perhaps it is not surprising that it is primarly liberals who pray for “unity” - their error is in only looking at physical appearances; true unity among Christians already exists since there is only one body and when God looks down from Heaven He sees that one body – He is not confused by such things as denominations! Jesus explained to John that not all true believers would be found in one grouping and Paul later made this even more clear. But there is even a third point here:

3. Rewards For Those Favourable to the Church.
People reveal their salvific status by how they respond to, and treat Christians. We sometimes expect every single person in our lives to become Christians right here and now but many Scriptures show that it is foolish to expect that. However, '...Anyone who gives you a cup of water in My Name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.' In the Final Judgment people who did not, perhaps, become Christians during this life but who had been generally helpful to the Church and to Christians and who had not persecuted where they could have done so are going to be in a much stronger position than those who had been continual enemies of the Christian gospel. Indeed, for those who are continual enemies of Christ and of His precious Gospel it is one of the surest and saddest signs of their eventual fate.

I hope that these comments help clarify the fact that these two Scriptures in no way contradict each other and a comparison of the two can actually teach us many things.
Robin A. Brace, 2006.

[Guest]

Thanks all. This is good stuff. I'm still sifting through it.

[Guest]

In Mark 9:38-41 it is immediately clear that John had assumed that Christians would just be one organised grouping of people. Jesus was effectively saying, 'No don't expect that!'
...
People reveal their salvific status by how they respond to, and treat Christians. We sometimes expect every single person in our lives to become Christians right here and now but many Scriptures show that it is foolish to expect that. However, '...Anyone who gives you a cup of water in My Name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.' In the Final Judgment people who did not, perhaps, become Christians during this life but who had been generally helpful to the Church and to Christians and who had not persecuted where they could have done so are going to be in a much stronger position than those who had been continual enemies of the Christian gospel. Indeed, for those who are continual enemies of Christ and of His precious Gospel it is one of the surest and saddest signs of their eventual fate.

Agreed.


A minor difference with this assertion:

So the group in Matthew are fraudulent preachers and teachers who had claimed to be genuine followers of Christ and had – undoubtedly – deceived many, yes, perhaps even millions. Without doubt, such false teachers who change and pervert the message of the gospel into a different message about wealth and success in this present age could well be included in this group.

I see in Matthew is that the false prophets that Jesus is referring to are considered outside of the faithful remnant because of the fruit that their lives produced. Doctrine or content of preaching isn't explicitly addressed.

The preceding statement to Matthew 7:21-23 says:
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

References to fruit in the NT always seem to refer to behaviour. Good fruit represents living righteously and bad fruit represents wickedness. Jesus (and the apostles) tell us that the primary indicator of a Godly person is their behaviour, not necessarily their doctrine or abilities.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus separates prophesying, exorcisms and miracles from that which will actually show a real disciple of Christ. Anyone can possess these abilities, but true faith in God is shown when filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. - Phillipians 1:11