Laws of the Israelites

[Homer]

Deleted and moved.

[Paidion]

Also, Paidion, first time I have heard of the "destroyer" being applied to Satan. Can you expand?

Brenden, I admit that for many years, I have read that passage presuming Satan to be the destoyer.
The writer to the Hebrews indicates that the devil has the power of death. Might not that indicate that he is the destroyer?

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil. (Hebrews 2:14 ESV)

However, Barnes suggests that the "destroyer" is understood by many to be the angel of death.
Hodge says that the "destroyer" is an angel commissioned by God.
Jamieson, Fawcett, and Brown say that the "destroyer" is the destroying angel. Since Satan may have been a created angel who rebelled against God, he may be the destroying angel.

[robbyyoung]

Also, Paidion, first time I have heard of the "destroyer" being applied to Satan. Can you expand?

Brenden, I admit that for many years, I have read that passage presuming Satan to be the destoyer.
The writer to the Hebrews indicates that the devil has the power of death. Might not that indicate that he is the destroyer?

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil. (Hebrews 2:14 ESV)

However, Barnes suggests that the "destroyer" is understood by many to be the angel of death.
Hodge says that the "destroyer" is an angel commissioned by God.
Jamieson, Fawcett, and Brown say that the "destroyer" is the destroying angel. Since Satan may have been a created angel who rebelled against God, he may be the destroying angel.

Hi Paidion,

The point is, they who grumbled were destroyed by God. Is this NOT talking about the Korah rebellion? God is the one who sanctioned their destruction.

God Bless.

[Paidion]

Paidion, are you reading Flood's book right now? If so, does Flood address this? I'm guessing he would say that the writer of 2 Peter had not yet learned (like Jesus and Paul) to filter OT passages about a violent God through the Jesus filter.

Yes, I am now in the process of reading Flood's book, "Disarming Scripture," but I have read only 56% of it. So far, I have not encountered any comments about 2 Peter in his book.

As for 2 Peter, it was one of the disputed books by the early church. Though the author purports to have been the apostle Peter, many considered it to have been written by someone else. Perhaps it is not possible to determine with any certainty its authenticity. See the Wikipedia article on 2 Peter here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Peter

According to bible-researcher. com, Irenaeus (born about 130) and Origen (born about 185) either do not mention the book or expressed some doubt about its status.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon3.html

[Paidion]

Hi Paidion,

The point is, they who grumbled were destroyed by God. Is this NOT talking about the Korah rebellion? God is the one who sanctioned their destruction.

Robby, I am a disciple of Christ, and thus I must believe what Jesus said about God's character. He said that God is kind both to ungrateful people and evil people (Luke 6:36), and He said that if his disciples love their enemies and do good to them, they will prove themselves to be God's children. John wrote that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). Since I accept the words of Jesus (and also John) in this matter, how can I believe that God kills people, blesses those who breaks babies' heads against a rock, orders women's hands to be cut off, gives Moses a law to have rebellious sons stoned, orders the Israelites to commit genocide, etc., etc., etc.?

[steve7150]

So, by extension, we believe in a God who could intervene in human suffering but often doesn't. That's ok with us but for Him to actually be the one who causes suffering is not ok?









This is precisely the crux of the matter, which is there is no difference. Ultimately God causes everything , God can change anything therefore his inaction is a form of him exercising his sovereignty. He is doing something when he doesn't do something. His inaction is a form of action. It is God who cursed the ground, who cursed man, who made it so living things have to kill living things to survive. Suffering and death is enbedded in God's plan of redemption as Romans 8 tells us in no uncertain terms.

[psimmond]

steve7150 wrote: Perhaps Jesus didn't say God did it because it was understood? What are the other choices? Natural event or Satan did it. Does Satan have that kind of power? Not in Job and not anywhere else in scripture and the odds of a natural event are zero.

Satan caused fire to come down from heaven and destroy the sheep and servants and he caused wind to blow over the house that Job's children were in, so why do you say Satan doesn't have this kind of power?

Then you said: This is precisely the crux of the matter, which is there is no difference. Ultimately God causes everything...

Did you recently convert to Calvinism? This is one of their biggest arguments and I think it is nonsense. Are you sure you want to pin every murder, rape, and atrocity that has ever happened on God because he allowed it to happen? Most non-Calvinists (including myself) view this as utter blasphemy.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Paidion,

The point is, they who grumbled were destroyed by God. Is this NOT talking about the Korah rebellion? God is the one who sanctioned their destruction.

Robby, I am a disciple of Christ, and thus I must believe what Jesus said about God's character. He said that God is kind both to ungrateful people and evil people (Luke 6:36), and He said that if his disciples love their enemies and do good to them, they will prove themselves to be God's children. John wrote that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). Since I accept the words of Jesus (and also John) in this matter, how can I believe that God kills people, blesses those who breaks babies' heads against a rock, orders women's hands to be cut off, gives Moses a law to have rebellious sons stoned, orders the Israelites to commit genocide, etc., etc., etc.?

Hi Paidion,

Bless you in your convictions. However, you've asked the question regarding the replies you thus far are receiving. We are trying to show you NT passages that correlate with God's character regarding judgment. This same judgment that was recorded in the OT. God's love is in no way tainted by His righteous judgments. Is God unrighteous or unloving by being passive in the world regarding the uttermost wickedness of man's inhumanity to man? God could intervene at any time, can't He? What kind of love doesn't protect the innocent? You see how this line of thinking causes us to start judging GOD! Using this logic, GOD is most assuredly GUILTY of inaction on the part of the innocent being slaughtered daily.

Thank God we ARE NOT in a position to question Him. He allows or not allows the things that be. He is extremely merciful to both the just and the unjust, however, His judgments, actions and inactions are solely in His sovereign hands, irregardless of our understanding or lack of faith. You can reconcile your differences by accepting His judgments, for His judgments are clearly stated both in the OT and the NT. Does His love supersedes His judgments? Or do they work hand-in-hand? We know little of what awaits us throughout all eternity, I say, let God be God and let His testimony stand, as the inhabitants of this world are being led by the Chief Shepard who defends His sheep with a rod of iron.

God Bless.

[jriccitelli]

Psimmond, sorry I have no problem with your post, or 2Peter, I was referring to Paidion when I said "Call Him good or bad, that is your choice and opinion…”. And Robby, yes of course Paidion rejects all this, but I was pointing to the reasons why God makes the Judgments, and the fact that God Himself makes the Judgments and calls for their execution, not the manner or method: pestilence, Assyrians, Babylonians, destroying angel or flood, that actually do the work. The irrefutable (unless you don't believe) and consistent theme throughout the OT and NT is that God calls for the punishment and even destruction and death Himself, regardless of how it comes about. Someone can’t remove such a consistent theme and message from scripture and still claim they 'believe' Gods word:
'He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations' (1Chron 16:14). 'He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations' (Psalm 105:7). 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' (Acts 3:23). 'For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker" (James 2:10-11)
David and Peter (while with John here) and James quote Moses, as do all the others, without being selective and without restraint.

Quoting OT passages regarding God's judgements (killing) proves nothing to our dear brother Paidion. (Robby)
True it is impossible to have a sincere 'bible' discussion or debate with someone who discounts Moses, as Jesus and all Gods Prophets agree with and quote Moses extensively and exhaustively, yet Paidion seems to be on a mission to refute Moses. God calls us to be believers. Believers of what? Half of Gods Word?

[Homer]

Apparently my earlier post wasn't noticed in the flurry so I am re-posting.


The Greek logion (Strong's 3051) is used in the NT for the very words of God, given to the Jews in the Old Testament:

Romans 3:2 (NKJV)
2. Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

And certainly one of those to whom God spoke was Moses:

Acts 7:35-38 (NKJV)
35. “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36. He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37. “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’ 38. “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,

And from Moses we read of the Passover Lamb:

Exodus 12:12-13 (NKJV)
12. ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13. Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.


Exodus 12:21-27 (NKJV)
21. Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Pick out and take lambs for yourselves according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb. 22. And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning. 23. For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you. 24. And you shall observe this thing as an ordinance for you and your sons forever. 25. It will come to pass when you come to the land which the Lord will give you, just as He promised, that you shall keep this service. 26. And it shall be, when your children say to you, ‘What do you mean by this service?’ 27. that you shall say, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.’” So the people bowed their heads and worshiped.

So we read of the Lord's destruction of all the firstborn of Egypt, and His "passing over" all the children of the Israelites. And the Apostle Paul informs us that for us Jesus is our Passover lamb:

1 Corinthians 5:7 (NKJV)
7. Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

If Moses told a false story about God destroying the Egyptians at that first Passover, even their little children, then there was no Passover. And Paul has falsely informed us about our Passover lamb. No type, no antitype, and Jesus can not be said to be our Passover lamb.

And further, Moses relates to us this incident:

Numbers 15:32-36 (NKJV)
32. Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36. So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Sounds like a very stern punishment. But was Moses lying or mistaken? Consider:

Acts 3:20-22 (NKJV)
20. and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21. whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22. For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

Notice Moses, speaking truthfully according to Peter, refers to Jesus as "a prophet like me". Peter tells us Moses was truly a prophet, a type of Christ. A prophet may speak predicting future events, but a prophet is also someone who speaks for God. You judge. Did Moses, a spokesman for God, speak falsely and blaspheme God's character or did he speak the truth? Can the Old Testament be trusted or no?