No doubt, there's a lot of symbolism in Daniel, a lot of symbolism in Ezekiel, and a lot of symbolism in Revelation. I don't think any of us (or many of us) are in any way suggesting that this symbolism is to be take physically (or "literally" if you will). Notwithstanding, the symbolism means something. It is there to give us a picture of reality. Let's re-examine the Revelation passage in question:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. Rev 20:1-3
John was having a vision. He described (above) what he saw in his vision.
He saw an angel holding a key to a bottomless pit, and a great chain. In the vision, the angel seized the dragon, bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it over him.
John tells us that in the vision, the dragon represented "the Devil" and "Satan". Clearly, in the vision, the shutting and sealing the dragon in the pit renders it inactive as far as anyone outside the pit is concerned. The dragon can't get out of the pit and do anyone any harm. What is represented? As I see it, it represents the fact that Satan is placed into such a position so as to be inactive for a thousand years (or some other long period of time, if you insist that the thousand years is symbolic).
"That he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are ended." This phrase gives us just one of the ramifications of Satan being rendered inactive. That is the only one mentioned. That doesn't mean that it is, in fact, the only one. Indeed, when he is rendered inactive, there will be a significant difference in the ways of the world. "The lion shall lie down with the lamb" (symbolic, perhaps), "Neither shall they learn war any more", etc., etc.
These conditions have not yet appeared upon the earth.
It certainly simplifies interpretation to be a pre-millenialist!
1948
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
On the other hand in the eyes of God who knows the end from the beginning, whose Son said it was finished, I would say He very well knows these conditions have appeared.These conditions have not yet appeared upon the earth.
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I think it refers again to the Gentiles:Paidion wrote:Indeed, when he is rendered inactive, there will be a significant difference in the ways of the world. "The lion shall lie down with the lamb" (symbolic, perhaps), "Neither shall they learn war any more", etc., etc.
These conditions have not yet appeared upon the earth.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Gentiles are always looked at as unclean, and there are numerous OT references to Israel being revaged by "animals" and "every beast of the field." When in fact this is referring to Gentile conquest as a judgement against Israel.
Think about Peter's vision:
Act 10:10 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance
Act 10:11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth.
Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him: "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
Act 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."
Act 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common."
Why did God use a vision about unclean animals to represent Gentiles? It seems this is the same thing that is meant by "the wolf lying down with the lamb" The wolf (Gentile) is an unclean threat and enemy to the clean animal (the Jew). In Christ Paul says in Ephesians 2 that this hostility has been taken away.
Obvioiusly, those who are not "in Christ" are not transformed and are not affected by this.
This is the meaning of "there will not be war anymore". For the Christian, there is peace between the brethren. At least there is between true Christians.
John 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Paidion, do you realize that at least some of the ECFs considered Isaiah 2:4, 11:6 etc to be fulfilled in their time, the Church age?
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Knows "the end from the beginning" of WHAT?On the other hand in the eyes of God who knows the end from the beginning, whose Son said it was finished, I would say He very well knows these conditions have appeared.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_STEVE7150
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Why did God use a vision about unclean animals to represent Gentiles? It seems this is the same thing that is meant by "the wolf lying down with the lamb" The wolf (Gentile) is an unclean threat and enemy to the clean animal (the Jew). In Christ Paul says in Ephesians 2 that this hostility has been taken away
Interesting interpretation that i used to take as the millineum and presently had assumed to be the eternal state , meaning the wolf and lamb lying together. It's a nice spiritual interpretation but the past 2,000 years have been awfully bloody even among so called followers of Christ or between christians and jews to see it as the wolf and lamb being cozy just yet.
Interesting interpretation that i used to take as the millineum and presently had assumed to be the eternal state , meaning the wolf and lamb lying together. It's a nice spiritual interpretation but the past 2,000 years have been awfully bloody even among so called followers of Christ or between christians and jews to see it as the wolf and lamb being cozy just yet.
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_STEVE7150
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till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. Rev 20:1-3
The tribulation "for a little while" , short but nasty.
The tribulation "for a little while" , short but nasty.
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Hi
I really think in light of what we have happening around us today that preterists would be more accurate instead of calling this the millennium they would be better of calling it the hellenium...because its a time of unrivaled evil and they have had us in it for around 1900 years....its not only a little twisted its downright unBiblical in my humble oppinion...now this made me laugh..Im sorry but frankly when you think about it...its hysterical. If this is their version of the millennium I can hardly wait for their version of the new heavens and new earth.
Crusader
Crusader
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Peace is a fruit of the Spirit..its good for the healing of many people and glorifes the living God when done in His name.
Crusader,
I know that you are not receptive to any answers, and are merely a mocker, rather than a debater (as your last post clearly demonstrates). Therefore, I would not waste time answering you, if not for the benefiit of those following this thread who may actually be curious about some of the points you raise.
You wrote:
"its a time of unrivaled evil and they have had us in it for around 1900 years"
I don't think the "preterists" have had us in a time of evil for the past 1900 years. We preterists had very little to do with the evils of the past 1900 years. When you speak of this period (the time since the coming of Christ) as a time of "unrivaled evil," you simply repeat, without improving your argument, the same error concerning which I answered you above.
To suggest that the last 1900 years have been more evil in character than the time previous to Christ's coming (the only thing your expression "unrivaled evil" could mean) simply advertizes in boldface type that you are 100% ignorant of history (or else, when desperate for lack of truthful arguments, you are willing to knowingly misrepresent the facts).
The earliest Christian historian known to us, besides the gospel writers, was named Eusebius (about 325 AD). He lived only a few centuries after the introduction of Christianity into history, and was much more in a position than are any of us to know in what manner the world had been changed by the coming of Christ. Eusebius was an amillennialist, and a preterist with reference to the Olivet Discourse. He commonly spoke of premillennialism as an early heresy, and said he thought it was a view that originated with the Gnostic heretic Cerenthus.
He may have been incorrect, but his intimate acquaintance with the early history of Christianity and its impact on the Empire did not lead him to think it strange to believe that the binding of Satan had occurred at Christ's first coming.
That the world has improved immensely since the coming of Christ was common knowledge among those who lived shortly after the transition had taken place (and has been common knowledge ever since, to all who possess even a modicum of awareness of world history). The third-century Christian apologist, Arnobius, stated this as a premise that he expected all to recognize, and none to refute. He wrote:
“an ungrateful world has now for a long period been enjoying a benefit from Christ. For by his means the rage of savage ferocity has been softened, and the world has begun to withold hostile hands from the blood of a fellow creature.” (Against the Heathen, book 1, sec.6)
The statement that "they shall not learn war anymore" (Isa.2:4) is not a statement of a universal disavowal of war in the world. It is a description of the "many people" who have ascended the hill of the Lord, been taught His ways and have chosen to walk in His paths (v.3). While some professed Christians have not put away their swords and spears and picked-up pruning hooks and ploughshares, yet, those who are described in verse 3 have historically done so.
Justin Martyr, who lived in the mid-second century, wrote:
“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each throughout the whole earth changed our weapons of war—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.” (Dialogue, 110)
It is interesting that Justin clearly applied Isaiah 2:1-4 to the present age—not the future millennium (which he happened to believe in).
I know that you are not receptive to any answers, and are merely a mocker, rather than a debater (as your last post clearly demonstrates). Therefore, I would not waste time answering you, if not for the benefiit of those following this thread who may actually be curious about some of the points you raise.
You wrote:
"its a time of unrivaled evil and they have had us in it for around 1900 years"
I don't think the "preterists" have had us in a time of evil for the past 1900 years. We preterists had very little to do with the evils of the past 1900 years. When you speak of this period (the time since the coming of Christ) as a time of "unrivaled evil," you simply repeat, without improving your argument, the same error concerning which I answered you above.
To suggest that the last 1900 years have been more evil in character than the time previous to Christ's coming (the only thing your expression "unrivaled evil" could mean) simply advertizes in boldface type that you are 100% ignorant of history (or else, when desperate for lack of truthful arguments, you are willing to knowingly misrepresent the facts).
The earliest Christian historian known to us, besides the gospel writers, was named Eusebius (about 325 AD). He lived only a few centuries after the introduction of Christianity into history, and was much more in a position than are any of us to know in what manner the world had been changed by the coming of Christ. Eusebius was an amillennialist, and a preterist with reference to the Olivet Discourse. He commonly spoke of premillennialism as an early heresy, and said he thought it was a view that originated with the Gnostic heretic Cerenthus.
He may have been incorrect, but his intimate acquaintance with the early history of Christianity and its impact on the Empire did not lead him to think it strange to believe that the binding of Satan had occurred at Christ's first coming.
That the world has improved immensely since the coming of Christ was common knowledge among those who lived shortly after the transition had taken place (and has been common knowledge ever since, to all who possess even a modicum of awareness of world history). The third-century Christian apologist, Arnobius, stated this as a premise that he expected all to recognize, and none to refute. He wrote:
“an ungrateful world has now for a long period been enjoying a benefit from Christ. For by his means the rage of savage ferocity has been softened, and the world has begun to withold hostile hands from the blood of a fellow creature.” (Against the Heathen, book 1, sec.6)
The statement that "they shall not learn war anymore" (Isa.2:4) is not a statement of a universal disavowal of war in the world. It is a description of the "many people" who have ascended the hill of the Lord, been taught His ways and have chosen to walk in His paths (v.3). While some professed Christians have not put away their swords and spears and picked-up pruning hooks and ploughshares, yet, those who are described in verse 3 have historically done so.
Justin Martyr, who lived in the mid-second century, wrote:
“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each throughout the whole earth changed our weapons of war—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.” (Dialogue, 110)
It is interesting that Justin clearly applied Isaiah 2:1-4 to the present age—not the future millennium (which he happened to believe in).
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
"They shall not learn war anymore" (Isa.2:4)
For those that apply this to the millennium, I wonder how those who learn war no more somehow learn war again when satan gathers them for battle?
For those that apply this to the millennium, I wonder how those who learn war no more somehow learn war again when satan gathers them for battle?
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
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_STEVE7150
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....its not only a little twisted its downright unBiblical in my humble oppinion...now this made me laugh..Im sorry but frankly when you think about it...its hysterical. If this is their version of the millennium I can hardly wait for their version of the new
Humble is not what comes to mind when i read your comments.
Humble is not what comes to mind when i read your comments.
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