1 Corinthians 2:14

[seer]

(4) You want to know what we think is a "worthy act." Again, we need to define our theological terms if we are going to have a theological discussion. Loose language is fine for a sunday school lesson, but you're trying to critique our theology, so we can't be so loose. So, here's a new term. I'm happy to explain (as will I hope others in the event I'm sloppy or in need of correction myself), but what do you mean by "worthy?" Worthy of what? Entering the Kingdom of God? Worthy of blessings from God? Rewards in Heaven?

No Darin, I want to know what you consider a worthy act. Worthy in the sight of God or in the sight of our fellow man or both.

I think we must be on a different page here -- I hate to just go back and forth, but I really do still need to know what you mean by "worthy" to answer that question. Even if I say we're talking about "worthy in the sight of God," we're still left with "worthy of what."

Sheesh! A meritorious act. And act worthy of praise and reward.

[darinhouston]

No Darin, I want to know what you consider a worthy act. Worthy in the sight of God or in the sight of our fellow man or both.


I think we must be on a different page here -- I hate to just go back and forth, but I really do still need to know what you mean by "worthy" to answer that question. Even if I say we're talking about "worthy in the sight of God," we're still left with "worthy of what."


Sheesh! A meritorious act. And act worthy of praise and reward.

As long as we aren't talking about "worthy" of salvation, then I'll put together an answer -- I just need to give some thought to the list, and being in "evacuation" mode from Ike, it may take me some time, but for starters, here's an example... If this isn't what you mean, then you'll have to elaborate. This does seem painfully obvious to me, though, if I get your question to the point that I'm not sure what it contributes to the debate, but if folks can chime in further, that'd be great. Here's a starter.

Matthew 6:19-21

"19 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also."

So, we know that if we cling not to our money, give to the poor, etc. we'll have that treasure in some form for us in heaven.

[TK]

uh- darin- shouldnt you be evacuating? i was thinking about that earlier.

TK

[darinhouston]

uh- darin- shouldnt you be evacuating? i was thinking about that earlier.

TK

Already in San antonio - thx for asking - pray for those their (and our homes)

[Sean]

Was Abraham being circumcised worthy of merit? After all it was commanded of of him. I'm not sure what your point is about Abraham - reword it please...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also

Abraham was imputed righteousness when he believed. Later he was circumcised. His belief was proven by his actions, even though it existed it was not obvious to others. This is how devils faith is different. Faith without works is dead. Devils have no good works, they are against God even though they know He exists. The very example of salvation that Jesus gave of the seed falling on four kinds of soil. The soil where the seed grew until it bore fruit was the kind that was acceptable before God. (Continued below:)

Ok, so nothing we do is worthy of merit? Was Abraham being circumcised worthy of merit? After all it was commanded of of him. I'm not sure what your point is about Abraham - reword it please...

If believing the gospel itself was worthy of reward then why were two types of soil where the seed (word of God) fell and was believed not commended:

Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

It's not believing that God "merits". It's endurance to the point of bearing fruit. Belief is the first step of a process that does not come to completion in all people. So no, I would say that God does not congratulate those who believe "for awhile". Three of the four types of people mentioned here were able to respond to the command to believe. Yet only one out of the four persevere.

[Sean]

uh- darin- shouldnt you be evacuating? i was thinking about that earlier.

TK

Already in San antonio - thx for asking - pray for those their (and our homes)

Prayers sent. I hope those who stayed behind make it through ok.

[seer]

Was Abraham being circumcised worthy of merit? After all it was commanded of of him. I'm not sure what your point is about Abraham - reword it please...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also

Abraham was imputed righteousness when he believed. Later he was circumcised. His belief was proven by his actions, even though it existed it was not obvious to others. This is how devils faith is different. Faith without works is dead. Devils have no good works, they are against God even though they know He exists. The very example of salvation that Jesus gave of the seed falling on four kinds of soil. The soil where the seed grew until it bore fruit was the kind that was acceptable before God. (Continued below:)

Ok, so nothing we do is worthy of merit? Was Abraham being circumcised worthy of merit? After all it was commanded of of him. I'm not sure what your point is about Abraham - reword it please...

If believing the gospel itself was worthy of reward then why were two types of soil where the seed (word of God) fell and was believed not commended:

Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

It's not believing that God "merits". It's endurance to the point of bearing fruit. Belief is the first step of a process that does not come to completion in all people. So no, I would say that God does not congratulate those who believe "for awhile". Three of the four types of people mentioned here were able to respond to the command to believe. Yet only one out of the four persevere.

So a faith that believes for a while is not worthy of merit. But a faith that endures is worthy of merit? So your faith, the kind that endures, is a meritorious thing?

[Sean]

So a faith that believes for a while is not worthy of merit. But a faith that endures is worthy of merit? So your faith, the kind that endures, is a meritorious thing?

Is that what I said? Why do you keep trying to read something in that isn't there? If belief in the gospel is something that can only be done by God actively causing it, then how were there people who could only believe for awhile? I thought all that come will not be cast out? Wouldn't God owe them something for their faith, even if it was only for awhile? If faith was worthy of merit, then God owes these people something. That's how OSAS people would argue.

[seer]

So a faith that believes for a while is not worthy of merit. But a faith that endures is worthy of merit? So your faith, the kind that endures, is a meritorious thing?

Is that what I said? Why do you keep trying to read something in that isn't there? If belief in the gospel is something that can only be done by God actively causing it, then how were there people who could only believe for awhile? I thought all that come will not be cast out? Wouldn't God owe them something for their faith, even if it was only for awhile? If faith was worthy of merit, then God owes these people something. That's how OSAS people would argue.

Sean, there are two kinds of faith. The faith of Devils and the faith that loves and serves God. I take the one in Luke as the the former. You say that the faith that loves and serves God is not worthy of merit - well if it is from you then it certainly is a act worthy of merit - because loving and serving God is a supreme good. Biblical faith is not a bare mental assent. It involves submission of the whole man. Paul speaks of "the work of faith" and the "obedience of faith." Christ says we must "pick up our cross" or we are not His disciples. This is biblical faith and nothing less. And a meritorious endeavor if there ever was one (if it's from us).

And I still can not understand why mature Christian so want to glory in their flesh...

[darinhouston]

Just a few "supremely good" acts:

(1) laying down one's life for one's friends
(2) enduring prosecution for Christ's sake
(3) showing mercy
(4) restraining anger
(5) choosing to forgive others
(6) prayer
(7) honoring vows
(8) turn the other cheek
(9) honor father and mother
(10) love your neighbor
(11) seeking the Kingdom of God
(12) giving to the poor
...

need I provide more?

Now, my turn -- seer, I presume you've done more than one of the above and you agree these are "supremely good" acts. If so...

(A) Were any of them done on your own choice?
(1) If so, does that mean you can boast in them?
(2) If not, is there ANYTHING we do on our own initiative?

I assume you will be intellectually honest and say - yes, I chose as a function of my will to honor my vow to my wife at least once in my marriage, and even I'm proud in my "choice," there's really nothing to "boast" about because it wasn't "me" who gave me the strength and wisdom and power to actually fulfill that willful decision -- it was the Holy Spirit. But, that doesn't negate the choice I made.

If you believe you didn't do ANYTHING meritorious on your own initiative, then you're either being dishonest or you believe in some form of world view that makes us merely players in God's computer program, and if you'll acknowledge that, then we can probably just agree to disagree on this point.