"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Al Maxey wrote (I added context):
In speaking of Gehenna, Jesus describes it as a place "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" {Mark 9:48}. Some versions repeat this phrase in verses 44 and 46, although there is little textual evidence for such. Most translations, based on a superior Greek text, include it only in verse 48. What is Jesus suggesting here? Is He really describing a place where maggots are immortal? Or is this merely an allusion to symbols and figures found in the OT writings? I believe the latter is clearly the case.

Jesus is referring to the prophecy of Isaiah. In the final statement of this book of prophecy we find a judgment scene, and we see the joy of God's people as they behold His righteous judgment on their behalf against His (and their) enemies.

Isaiah 66:15-16
For behold, the Lord will come in fire and
His chariots like the whirlwind, to render His
anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames
of fire. For the Lord will execute judgment
by fire and by His sword on all flesh, and
those slain by the Lord will be many.

Please note here that the text says the Lord will SLAY these ungodly ones, it does not declare the Lord will TORTURE them. Notice also that the redeemed will be able to witness the RESULT of this destruction carried out by God against the wicked:

Isaiah 66:24
Then they shall go forth and look on the
corpses of men who have transgressed
against Me. For their worm shall not die,
and their fire shall not be quenched; and they
shall be an abhorrence to all mankind (in bold, see below).


Todd replied:
1. That's right, they are slain, they are dead. No mention of any post-death punishment here! They (the living) suffered God's wrath which lead to their death. But we do know that they will rise again.

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

1. I agree that this Isaiah passage doesn't [specifically] talk about the resurrection and isn't, necessarily, singularly about the final judgment of all at the end of the age -- the more I look at it the more I wonder if this was the judgment of 70 AD (?).

Do you believe that after the resurrection (of the just and unjust) there is no final judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

You wrote: They (the living) suffered God's wrath which lead to their death.

So you see this as past tense? That the "they" of Is 66:24 have already suffered God's wrath? Who do you mean by "(the living)"? Not all of the living are subject to the wrath of God, is why I am asking.

2. Paul was telling Felix he believed in the resurrection of all, whether just or unjust, as did members of "the Way" (the Nazarene believers in Jerusalem). I'm not sure why you posted this verse (?).

So what is the end of those who haven't heard it? Is it fair to send those who have not heard the gospel to post-death hell? Where do these fit into your understanding of the truth? I would estimate that the majority of mankind fits into this catagory. The 'orthodox' view has no answers from the scriptures about these. BTW, neither does the annihilationist view. Think of it...no answer for the majority of mankind!

Paul has some answers for you, Todd.

Romans 2 (NASB)
1For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles[1] who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

[1] the Gentiles referenced here are believers (Christians)

Romans 10 (NASB)
11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

In reading Paul I find out what the real questions are. According to him, those who have not heard and believed will perish on a Day when God will judge all through Jesus Christ. Some will perish; Some will be saved.

Ironically, I got this from a Unitarian Universalist I used to 'debate' @ Beliefnet:

"Unquestioned answers are far more dangerous than unanswered questions."

In my opinion: You have to ask the right questions first.

This thread's making me rethink my eschatology.
Thanks, Todd & all,
Rick

[mgarrett]

Do you believe that after the resurrection (of the just and unjust) there is no final judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

You wrote: They (the living) suffered God's wrath which lead to their death.

So you see this as past tense? That the "they" of Is 66:24 have already suffered God's wrath? Who do you mean by "(the living)"? Not all of the living are subject to the wrath of God, is why I am asking.

Matt 16:24-28
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Rick,

This is one of many judgment scriptures in the New Testament that states that we will be "rewarded according to our works." This mentions specifically that it will happen before some of those listening would die. Some have argued that this is talking about 70AD, but there is nothing in the surrounding context to make that conclusion. I believe that the judgment and pouring out of God's wrath began when Christ took His seat at God's right hand and will come to a dramatic conclusion when He returns, but is finished before the resurrection. I also believe that God's wrath (punishment) is poured out upon the living, not the dead.

When John the Baptist said, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come" (Matt 3:7) he was speaking of something that was near at hand, not something thousands of years away. He warned them to repent.

I believe that God's wrath upon the living is described in four different forms:

1) Conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ). We are told that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin. The Spirit works in the hearts of those who sin bringing feelings of guilt, anxiety, and shame. This conviction can be extremely severe; some can no longer live with themselves and commit suicide.

2) Paul tells us:

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is very plain teaching that God's wrath is being poured out now against the ungodly (the living). Paul goes on to say that:

God gives them over...
to uncleanness (vs 24)
to vile passions (vs 26)
to a debased mind (vs 28 )

I believe this is a case where those who don't respond to the conviction of the Spirit and harden their hearts, have their lives completely engulfed in sinfulness. Paul says that ultimately these deserve death (vs 32). Notice there is no mention of post-death hell.

3) Paul also teaches that the governing authorities are God's ministers to execute His wrath upon the ungodly (Rom 13:1-5, quoted earlier). This, again, is very plain language about the wrath of God being poured out now upon the living. Judgment preceeds wrath, does it not?

4) Finally, we are told that at Christ's return His wrath will be poured out upon the disobedient (2 Thess 1:8 ). These, I believe, are those who are still alive at His return.

The reason I quoted Acts 24:15 about the resurrection and that it includes both the just and unjust, is to show that, even though the ungodly have suffered God's wrath while they were alive, Christ has reconciled them to God and they are resurrected along with the just.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Conversely, those who follow Christ in faith, are rewarded for their [good] works. These rewards are mostly spiritual and are described as the fruits of the spirit; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, etc. To live life having peace with God and man is a great blessing from God.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Not all of the living are subject to the wrath of God, is why I am asking.

This has been argued by others (TK, Homer, Derek, Steve7150). Homer specifically likes to mention Ted Turner and Hugh Hefner. My answer to this is that we have have no way of knowing what the Lord is doing in lives of these men. What we can see from our vantage point is very limited.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Re your post, I like Abraham, (and I am sure most of us here) believe that the Judge of all Mankind will always do right. You and I may not agree or understand completely the whole process of God in judging us, but we at least can agree, God will always do right. This is my default answer.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

I would turn this argument around. Since eternal punishment was a belief held prominently by the Jews, and also by many of the gentiles (it was so well known among the gentiles that it has been charged by some that they were the source of the Jew's belief in it), why would Paul and the Apostles need to mention any more than the coming judgement while preaching the gospel?

This is not true that the jews believed in eternal punishment. There was virtually no concept of heaven or hell in the OT. There was'nt even a word for hell just "sheol" which means grave.
As far as gentiles go they had all kinds of different beliefs based on whatever pagan religion they followed.

[Guest]

Hi Steve7150

Quote:"This is not true that the jews believed in eternal punishment. There was virtually no concept of heaven or hell in the OT".

Jewish conceptions of an "eternal judgement, heaven or hell" indeed are rare ideas in the Bible, but they are there. Let me ask you this; since "eternal judgement" is a foreign idea in your view of God and the Bible, why do you think Jesus devoted more time talking about it than Heaven?
And, if there were no previous ideas of an afterlife in Jewish thought, then
Paul's commentary in ICor 15, or Jesus' argument with the Saducces in Matt 22, doesn't make much sense. How about Daniel 12?
Using your rationale Steve, what good reason do we have to believe in an "eternal heaven" much less an "eternal Hell" ?

[mgarrett]

Using your rationale Steve, what good reason do we have to believe in an "eternal heaven" much less an "eternal Hell" ?

Bob,

To give my answer to your question..... It is because Paul speaks so many times of the resurrection from the dead and immortality. But he never speaks of hell.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

That 'death is destroyed' rules out annihilationism IMO.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

I am a little confused about your beliefs. They seem inconsistant. On the one hand you say that there is no "annihilation", but that "death is swallowed up". In your view "death" goes where? If unbelievers are judged in this life alone as I understand your view to be, then you seem to believe in some form of annilhilationism. BTW, Paul, IMO, doesn't need to use the specific word "hell" for us to determine whether or not the ungodly will be judged eternally. He leaves no doubt in my mind that the ungodly are punished eternally. Now, one could argue about what the duration of "eternal punishment" means. Does this "eternal death" mean
a "living death" of unending duration (my current belief) ? Or does it mean that "physical death" is the end of the matter with respect to God's judgement upon the "ungodly" and therefore "eternal" in the sense of it being permanent with no remedy? In other words, "lights out" is all there is to it. (my preferred belief).

[mgarrett]

Hi Todd,

I am a little confused about your beliefs. They seem inconsistant. On the one hand you say that there is no "annihilation", but that "death is swallowed up". In your view "death" goes where? If unbelievers are judged in this life alone as I understand your view to be, then you seem to believe in some form of annilhilationism. BTW, Paul, IMO, doesn't need to use the specific word "hell" for us to determine whether or not the ungodly will be judged eternally. He leaves no doubt in my mind that the ungodly are punished eternally. Now, one could argue about what the duration of "eternal punishment" means. Does this "eternal death" mean
a "living death" of unending duration (my current belief) ? Or does it mean that "physical death" is the end of the matter with respect to God's judgement upon the "ungodly" and therefore "eternal" in the sense of it being permanent with no remedy? In other words, "lights out" is all there is to it. (my preferred belief).

Bob,

I see why you are confused. Firstly, I do not believe in annihilation. To me, 'death being destroyed' means that no one is dead any longer - everyone who has died is no longer dead. This is what happens at the resurrection, everyone is raised to life and death has been destroyed.

All God's punishments are poured out upon the living and may, in extreme cases, result in the death of the one being punished (e.g., Saddam Hussien). God's punishments are "everlasting" in the sense that they will continue unabated until the sinner repents or until death (which does actually annihilate the flesh, but not the spirit). The spirit of everyone will be raised and we'll get a new spiritual body.

1 Cor 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Ultimately, what I am saying is that, as a result of God's judgment, everyone is rewarded according to their works while they live. We reap what we sow. If we follow Christ in faith we are rewarded positively and saved from God's wrath. For those who are disobedient and do not respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, they are rewarded negatively, but still called to repent as long as they live. All rewards (both good and bad) are proportional to our works. But the Good News is that "while we were sinners Christ died for us" and reconciled the whole world to God. The result is that everyone who has ever lived has been reconciled and will be raised from the dead and receive a new glorified immortal body. And Christ will be All in All.

Hopefully, you understand me now. I have been consistent in my posts, but because my views are not 'orthodox' I am misunderstood sometimes.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

1. Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is very plain teaching that God's wrath is being poured out now against the ungodly (the living).

2. Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

This is one of many judgment scriptures in the New Testament that states that we will be "rewarded according to our works." This mentions specifically that it will happen before some of those listening would die.

3. Some have argued that this is talking about 70AD, but there is nothing in the surrounding context to make that conclusion.

4. I believe that the judgment and pouring out of God's wrath began when Christ took His seat at God's right hand and will come to a dramatic conclusion when He returns, but is finished before the resurrection. I also believe that God's wrath (punishment) is poured out upon the living, not the dead.

5. Rick_C wrote:
Not all of the living are subject to the wrath of God, is why I am asking.

You replied:
This has been argued by others (TK, Homer, Derek, Steve7150). Homer specifically likes to mention Ted Turner and Hugh Hefner. My answer to this is that we have have no way of knowing what the Lord is doing in lives of these men. What we can see from our vantage point is very limited.

1. Incorrect. It says God's wrath is "revealed" from heaven---not "poured out." The Greek word apokalupto indicates God's wrath has been "disclosed, made known, uncovered, layed [out in the] open, and/or unveiled." You can't get "poured out" from apokalupto.

2. Verse 28: Jesus specifically says that some of His hearers would not die before they saw Him coming in His kingdom; that they would be eyewitnesses of His kingdom's inauguration. (This is what this verse is about).

Verse 27: Jesus speaks of His future coming "in the glory of His Father" at final judgment.

3. Some passages are clear in and of themselves. Others need to be compared: "Scripture with Scripture."

1 Cor 15, (NASB)
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

1 Co 15:24 and Mat 16:27 refer to the same event of the final judgment which will happen in the future at the end of the age. Also, there are quite a few more events that relate to 1 Cor 15:24; the final judgment is but one of them.

4. There are many problems with this statement, imo, based in part from what I'm posting in this post. You quote passages and "bold" sections of verses as proofs of what you think they say. This, to me, is not responsible hermeneutics unless compatibility with the overall teaching of Scripture can be demonstrated. You seem to "downplay" context and "bold" what you like. Earlier you bolded 1 Cor 15:22b to support your views. I may post how you were in error, imo, on that later (as I do not believe the verse, the chapter, or Paul taught universalism or meant in the text what you think it does).

5. Christians are not subjects of God's wrath.

Rom 5:8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

1 Thess 1:10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Christians are both currently rescued from the wrath of God, and will also ultimately be saved from it. Romans 5:8 and 1 Thessalonians applies only to believers.

5. The Bible teaches that final judgment -- which includes the pouring out of God's wrath -- is being withheld till the coming of Christ. Though God's wrath against ungodliness is revealed in this present age; He has deferred final judgment in order that people can repent and escape the wrath to come--through believing the Gospel.

Coffee time,
Rick

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

I think Rick pointed it out better than I could. (Thanks Rick!). The issue is about the "wrath to come" as compared to the "wrath being revealed from Heaven" against all ungodliness. There appears to be two aspects of God's wrath. Death also in the Bible has at least two aspects; one is of the body in this present age; and the other from the presence of God (spiritually and permanently) in the age to come for the ungodly, Satan and all fallen angels in the LOF. This is called the "second death". I agree, whether godly or ungodly, all will be raised. The issue is one of seperation.