Does God foreknow future choices that we make?

Post by **_Jim** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:45 am

I don't know about any of you, but if Jesus didn't exist prior to Him becoming flesh than this verse would be false.

jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

This verse alone clearly shows to me that the world was created by Jesus and pre-existing prior to creation of the kosmos.

I get from scripture that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, seperate and distinct, yet there is only one God and no other gods. It is most definetly a paradigm for us. I know I have blown many brain cells trying to understand the relationship and interconnection of the trinity, but I finally resigned myself to accept what I can't see or understand until such time as the Lord reveals all things to us.

I would also say denying the full divinity of Jesus puts someone on very shakey ground.

Gob Bless,

Jim

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:24 am

If the word "God" in the statement "Jesus is God" means Deity, a generic reference to the "God Family" (of which there are but two members), then the statement is true.

I agree that between the Father And Son and Holy Spirit the word God is like the last name of their family. If the Father and Son existed eternally as independent individuals then the Father and Son would be brothers because for a Father to be one there must have been a birth of His Son and that is what the KJV explicitly says. "I came out from God" John 16.27. Sometime in the distant past before the universe was created the Son literally came out from God which means the Son did exist eternally but was in His Father and then was "begotten" from the Father at some point. Clearly the Father is portrayed as the source of everything in scripture. Christ and the Holy Spirit are divine and are individuals yet they always do the Father's will not their own therefore in a way we probably can't really comprehend they are not three God's.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:17 am

Another way of understanding John 1:10
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... age&pid=87

It points out that this passage is about the Father not the Son as preceded by Verse 6.

It also go's on to say, some scholars make the phrase 'made by him' refer to the new creation only. But links Col., heb. and John 1:1 to show it a double entendre, referring to both the new and original creation.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:46 pm

I can not understand how your statement does not say there are two people who are Gods.

It is important to distinguish "the God" (which always refers to the Father) from the generic use of "God" as a single Deity.

There are indeed two Divine Individuals, each of whom is God in the generic sense ---- the Father and the Son. In this sense one could speak of two Gods. Indeed, Genesis 1:26 says literally:

Then Gods said, "Let's make man in our image..."

Yet, in another sense, there is only one Deity.

Perhaps an analogy (albeit a poor one) would be that there are many people on the earth, but only one humanity.

You say there are two distinct individuals who are Diety. An individual is a particular person, a distinct entity. If Jesus is such, as you say, is He not a God?

Yes, He is a God in the sense of being the Son of God the Father. He is therefore fully Deity. But He is not a different deity as, for example, Zeus would be.

In the same way, the popular trinitarian talk of one God being three persons is difficult because a person is an individual. It seems to me the old way of speaking of God as three persona is more understandable, that is, contra "Jesus only", God can fill three roles simultaneously.

I'd appreciate it if you would reword this statement. The way it's laid out, I cannot fully comprehend it.

Are you saying that Trinitarianism, difficult as it is to understand, is more understandable than modalism?

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:15 am

Paidion,

You said:

Yes, He is a God in the sense of being the Son of God the Father. He is therefore fully Deity. But He is not a different deity as, for example, Zeus would be.

Does this capture your thought?

Analogy: God and Zeus (forgetting for the moment Zeus does not exist) are both gods in the same sense that horses and cows are both animals.

And: God and Jesus are one only in the sense they are in complete agreement and are in the same category of beings. They are distinct individuals, however God once existed and Jesus did not.

I'd appreciate it if you would reword this statement. The way it's laid out, I cannot fully comprehend it.

Are you saying that Trinitarianism, difficult as it is to understand, is more understandable than modalism?

Perhaps this is better:

In the same way, the popular trinitarian way of speaking of one God being three persons is difficult to comprehend because, as the words are normally defined, a person is an individual, thus seemingly positing three Gods. It seems to me the old way of speaking of God as three persona is more understandable, that is God can fill three roles simultaneously. This is not the same idea as modalism, which maintains God can only fill one role at a time.

My own view is that God and Jesus are coeval; I say Jesus rather than the Son because I believe the inspired Apostle, John 1:1, used the most appropriate description in human language, "The Word", to inform us of Jesus' existance prior to His incarnation. He did not use "The Son".