Is There Harm in teaching Universalism?

[Guest]

Danny,

Quote: " Regarding what happens to those who die having never heard or understood the Gospel, I didn't inquire so much about what you personally know, but asked "How does your system of belief answer this question?"

There are certain details Jesus doesn't disclose to us. I do not follow anyones systemitized theology per say. So the best you'll recieve from me is my opinion. I'll answer the problem in two ways; 1) Jesus tells us to go into all the creation with the Gospel and make disciples. He doesn't tell us everyone will be 'converted'. 2) Under 'normal' circumstances the required response to a Gospel invitation after having heard it is to repent, be baptized and follow Jesus as His disciple. So He really doesn't tell us to worry about the results. Nor does He call us to be "fruit pickers". Harvesting the fruit is His business.

As for those who never 'hear the Gospel', they will be judged by the "light " they do have. As I've mentioned, Paul in Romans 1-2 seems to speak about the issue. Do I believe Jesus' shed blood is sufficient for the sin of the entire human race? Yes I do. Will all benefit? I don't know.
Apparently there is one group of people who will not. That is the 'wicked'.
Once again that is God's call. But as I said, under normative circumstances, we know what God requires. My confidence is in God who will always do right and knows all the circumstances , contingencies etc. That is why I don't 'worry' about it. I'll let Him do the worrying. I am supremely confident that all those whom God calls His sheep, that not one will be lost! Why are there some who appear more disadvantageous than we in the West, I don't know. Luck? Predestination? God only knows.
Thats like asking God why He chose Abram out of the multitude of pagans in his world? Was he better than everyone else? Was God merely being arbitrary? Why the Hebrews? Why not the Hitites or any other 'ites'
we find in the bible? I don't know, but God does. Maybe you ask the wrong questions. Maybe you should ask God why He chose you!
It is all by His grace at the end of the day isn't it? Salvation is by grace through faith. Got faith? Your in! Praise God!

[_Rick_C]

Homer,

I just re-read your last post about 5 times.

Amen, Brother, and Amen, and Amen, and Amen!

God be with you!
Rick

[Guest]

Rick wrote:

Many undoubtedly thought "I might become a Christian later" only to die before then or, otherwise, put it off till it was too late. Any number of rationalizations can be taken to procrastinate. Universalism offers a very convenient reason to put off believing: You can pay the price for an ungodly life after you die---and still be with God forever: AFTER THAT. This provides a "double out procrastination ". First, no need to become a Christian during my lifetime. Second, it will all be taken care after I die. "Eat, drink, for tomorrow we die! And get to be with God anyway!"

I think Rick is correct in his concern, only the danger is even greater than he suggests, and is apparently not acknowledged by the CUs.

If a person is enjoying a life of sin, which many do, in spite of what Todd says, they have a triple excuse to procrastinate! If they believe they will spend a period of time in hell being corrected [and no universalist can provide any proof how long that may be; the person can always imagine he will easily be corrected (remember, no retribution allowed)] they can say to theirself "I will have my pleasure now, and repent when I am old. And if I die suddenly somehow before I can repent, I can undergo correction and be with God regardless!

It is undeniably in man's nature to enjoy now and pay later. That is why it is so hard to diet, or break any pleasurable habit that does cumulative harm to the self. The message of the scripture is clear: repent now! Now is all we have. Any excuse is harmful.

Homer,

Do you feel that the danger of CU is unique to that doctrine?

I can assure you from personal experience that the ET doctrine kept me away from God for over 20 years. I could not accept that a God such as this could exist, and if He did, He could not be considered good.

But I have told you that story before. I did not tell you before how my own son is currently afraid to deal with God because of ET. My son was seeking after God until about his sophomore year in HS. We spoke often about God, and one day I asked him if he was making sure of his salvation. This question had some unintended consequences. He started to doubt his salvation, and for at least a year he lived in utter terror of burning in Hell. He eventually learned to cope with his fears by choosing to not even think about God. He stopped reading his bible and Christian books, and has become more and more worldly.

Rick has told of how if he considered that he only had to suffer for 10000 years in hell for drinking a beer he might consider it. But isn't that exactly what CI teaches, that punishment is limited in duration, followed by the person being put out of misery (ie: extinguished)?

I believe the devil can twist any person who wants to sin into believing it is OK to do so. You do not need to teach CU to result in a person deciding to put off a decision for Christ, or choosing to rebel or disbelieve. (I am living example of that).

And whether or not satan can twist a doctrine to keep a person from choosing to follow Christ does not indicate whether the doctrine is true or not.

I think, also, that Danny has told of his own personal experience with people coming out of a jail experience, used to feeling condemned, and how the light of God's love opens them up to the gospel.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Bob,

Maybe you should ask God why He chose you!

Believe me, I ask Him that one all the time!

It is all by His grace at the end of the day isn't it? Salvation is by grace through faith.

Amen!

P.S.
You really haven't answered by questions.

[Guest]

Danny,

Quote: " Do you think your mom deserves eternal torment? The second question is like it. You know, probably better than almost anyone, what a unique and precious person your mother was. Do you think she deserves to cease to exist altogether"?

You want a straight forward and honest answer how I felt about my mother's salvation or lack thereof? The issue is not what I or we think who "deserves" salvation, Danny.
I really try not to think of my relationship with God in those terms. The nature of your question imo though, reveals what you believe about God. Your use of the word "deserve" betrays imo, who is behind this
diabolocial doctrine of demons! How clever of him! He "appears as an angel of light and mercy", by pandering to our emotions. I think he has entirely tricked you Danny. He uses many devices to derail us. I can also understand even recognize Satan's handi work of deception in any doctrinal view that distorts the real meaning behind any given biblical text.
Anyone or group can "make" the bible say whatever they wish to support whatever 'isim" they desire. No one merits or deserves salvation Danny.
No matter how refined, moral or kind they may be. No one can charge God with injustice here.

I am going to go out on a limb-way out! Ever since I have entered this debate and declared this CU doctrine a grand deception of the Devil himself, I have been under the most severe "attack" I have ever experienced in my relationship with Christ! This is pure spiritual warfare.
I don't know if anyone else who rejects CU has been under attack. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

For now,
In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

I think Rick is correct in his concern, only the danger is even greater than he suggests, and is apparently not acknowledged by the CUs.
If a person is enjoying a life of sin, which many do, in spite of what Todd says, they have a triple excuse to procrastinate! If they believe they will spend a period of time in hell being corrected [and no universalist can provide any proof how long that may be; the person can always imagine he will easily be corrected (remember, no retribution allowed)] they can say to theirself "I will have my pleasure now, and repent when I am old. And if I die suddenly somehow before I can repent, I can undergo correction and be with God regardless!
It is undeniably in man's nature to enjoy now and pay later. That is why it is so hard to diet, or break any pleasurable habit that does cumulative harm to the self. The message of the scripture is clear: repent now! Now is all we have. Any excuse is harmful.

This same charge could be leveled at God allowing for deathbed conversions, as you point out above.
If someone is looking to wait until their deathbed to repent, they have already missed the point and are attempting to abuse the grace and mercy of the cross.
If someone wants to use CU as an excuse to procrastinate repentance, the problem doesn't lie with the CU, but with the person's attitude.

I would point such a person to -
Romans 2:1-5
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.


This danger exists regardless of whether CU is correct or not.


Dave

[Guest]

Ok Bob, I'm sorry, I'll recall my demonic minions.

I've been called an anti-Semite before, because I don't support Dispensationalist Zionism, but I think this is the first time I've ever been called Satanic. But hey, if you've been experiencing demonic attacks since entering into this discussion, then that pretty well settles it!

Homer, put the stake in the ground!
Rick, gather up some kindling and rope!
Boys, we gonna have us a Satanic heretic burnin'!


Bob, you have completely misinterpreted the reason I was asking these questions. Perhaps all the hissing snakes and demonic attacks have made it difficult to concentrate! Or maybe you're just getting too wound up about all this. Just take deep breaths and repeat to yourself, "It's only a theological discussion. It's only a theological discussion."

You still haven't answered my questions. I won't press the question about your mother because I can see I've made you upset and I apologize. Let me explain what I was getting at (I'll take it into the abstract): I believe that most people, if they're honest, would say that they can't imagine their loved ones being tormented in hell forever (there are exceptions: such as my mother-in-law ) or see their loved ones as being deserving of such a fate. If we believe that scripture tells us differently, then we will do our best to conform to scripture, but most folks still hold out hope that somehow their loved ones will be spared. It's easier to accept endless torment (or annihilation) when the recipient is a stranger, but very difficult to square that depiction of God's justice when it's applied to someone we know and love. That could mean that we're just arrogant and deceived, as you accuse CUs of being. Or it could mean that the sense of justice we've received from God points in a different direction than the interpreted teachings of eternal torment or annihilationism.

According to Calvinism, God created a majority of the human race with the intention of damning them. According to Arminianism, God created a majority of the human race knowing they would reject Him and be damned. Those billions and billions of people did not ask to be created. They had no say in the matter. The question is before us then and we can either pretend it doesn't exist or try to work through it: What is God's responsibility to His creation?

Go stand in a busy shopping mall and imagine most of those people suffering for all eternity. Or, imagine them annihilated, if it makes you feel better. Each person is a precious individual. Each person is loved by others and loved perfectly by God. ET and CI teach that God either cannot or will not rescue them from their sin (despite what scripture says). CU teaches that God already has rescued them. That is, as the Christmas story says, "Good news of great joy that will be for all the people."

By the way, if all those people at the mall and elsewhere are on a rocket to Hell (or annihilation), what on earth are you doing about it? One-on-one evangelism just isn't going to keep up with the influx of new people being born.

According to Universal Reconciliation, God did not create most people in order for them to be damned. Rather, God created each person intentionally knowing before hand that they would spend eternity in loving relationship with Him. Each person is a unique child, a jewel, a treasure (yes, even the bad ones somewhere under all that sin).

Here are the other questions that you continue to avoid answering:

1. What happens to those who die having never heard or understood the Gospel, I didn't inquire so much about what you personally know, but asked "How does your system of belief answer this question?

2. If salvation can occur apart from knowing Christ in this life then does that simply mean one can one get saved and enter into eternal life apart from Christ, or is salvation still through Christ but post-mortem?

3. If you believe that people can be saved apart from knowing Christ in this life (aka the ignorant) how does that work? At what point does Christ play a role in their entrance into the eternal Kingdom of God?

Surely you have some kind of scriptural support or thought-out theology for your assertions that prompted these questions. I know you wouldn't have made the assertions presumptuously, since that's what you accused Cus of doing.

[Guest]

It is undeniably in man's nature to enjoy now and pay later. That is why it is so hard to diet, or break any pleasurable habit that does cumulative harm to the self. The message of the scripture is clear: repent now! Now is all we have. Any excuse is harmful.

I basically agree with this paragraph. But as Danny indicated, this tendency extends far and wide, and can hardly be thought to be restricted to believers in the Universal Reconcilation of All to God.

But tell us, Homer, do you know any believers in Universal Reconciliation who operate from the premise, "I can live in sin now, since I can always repent and be saved later"? I am sure there are some, especially among the liberal Universalists, who think God is too "loving" to send anyone to Hell, and will take them all to heaven when they die; indeed, they many of them do not see any need of repentance at all.

But then, I know of believers in Eternal Torment who also procrastinate submitting to Christ. "I can always do that in my old age."

If our chief consideration here is whether people are more likely to repent, I think those who accept UR have it by a long shot. For those unbelievers who think all Christians teach ET, do not believe such a horrible "god" exists. They understand the teaching as a mere fear tactic of church leaders to control their members. So they are unwilling to submit to such a "god". They blaspheme and rail against him.

Those who hear that a God of love, a God who has everyone's needs at heart, and will act to reconcile everyone to Himself, delivering them from their self-destructive tendencies (sin), there is a possiblity that they will consider His claims upon them.

As I see it, it is the Eternal Torment doctrine that has its origins in satanic, demonic influences.

[_Rick_C]

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[Guest]

As I see it, it is the Eternal Torment doctrine that has its origins in satanic, demonic influences


Yes and it had a name, the RCC of the middle ages. The same church you had to pay off to obtain forgiveness.
What better way to motivate you to buy forgiveness then the threat of ET.