Well its Sunday morning and Im drinking my morning coffe( as if you wanted to know) getting ready to go worship the Lord. We spent Friday night and all day Saturday listening to Dan Frinfrock of ICM Ministries teach on how to use inductive Bible study...learned a lot. He has been going into 3rd world countries equipping Pastors to teach the Word for 20 years.Sometimes in India a Pastor walks 3 days to come and listen. He moved His family to the Philipines and lived there 15 years now Hes back in the U.S.Anyway Damon I got up and wanted to share with you but the Lord hasnt dropped anything much in my basket this morning...heres that site ( I dont know if we are allowed to share sites) but the guys awesome and doesnt push any doctrine in his material which really revolutionized some of my study habits..Sean I liked what you shared and agree. Damons got me quite baffled and I sought the Lord this morning but He didnt give me anyhting to share to speak of. The Coffee and Frinfrock thing were my own idea.
http://www.calvarychapel.com/icmbible/
Lord Bless Steve
Crusader
Damon..coffee and Frinfrock
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Damon,
As you may recall, when someone on another thread of this forum seemed to be unfairly judging you beyond what, I thought, was justified by your comments, I came to your defense. I thought then (and I think now) that you had not said anything that had deserved that person's criticism.
On the other hand, I have felt compelled to defend others (especially Sean)against you doing just the same thing...judging his motives far more harshly than anything he had said would call for.
Now that I am (as you put it) "judging" you, I assure you that it is based upon ample evidence given in a wide variety of dialogs with you in this forum. The points I made in my previous post (above) are actually found in your posts, and my judgment of you was slow in coming, and as charitable as the evidence will permit.
I did call your motives into question on one point, though I mentioned that my assessment was not "inspired" and, thus, might be mistaken. However, my other observations did not deal with your motives but with your actions.
That you might have done some of these actions through ignorance or immaturity is a possibility that I did not rule out. But when you set yourself up as a teacher, you must know that you thereby invite upon yourself "the stricter judgment" (James 3:1). You should not set yourself up as the defender of a controversial opinion, if you are not thick-skinned enough to handle peer review and scriptural cross-examination without complaining when this occurs.
If you offer yourself as a marriage counselor without knowing basic ethics of counseling, you invite correction to yourself, and should not complain when it comes.
If you tell a group of Christians that God made a promise, didn't keep it, and thus destroyed the faith of a woman, through no fault of her own, you are suggesting two very unbiblical things: 1) that God promises things, but does not keep His promises (i.e., that God lies); and 2) that people who lose their faith are not responsible for their apostasy, but God is. You should not be surprised that you found no Christian who agreed with your assessment. "Let God be true, and every man a liar."
Given your report of your friend's crisis, there are only four possibilities that can be considered: 1) that your friend thought that God made a promise, but was mistaken in her belief about this; or 2) that God has kept, or will keep the promise; or 3) that the promise was conditional, and the conditions were not met to permit its fulfillment; or 4) God lied.
Most of those who have answered you have deduced that the first option is the correct one, and are unwilling to believe the fourth under any circumstances. You, on the other hand, have adamantly ruled-out all but the last. You say that you do not mean to insult God, or to make Him a liar, yet, as you say, you are a highly intelligent man, and must realize that you cannot consistently deny the first three without affirming the fourth. I don't recall you denying the fourth...certainly not with the same conviction as you demonstrate in denying the first three.
As you have sought to refute those who think the first option is most likely, you have made increasingly more incredible claims about your friend's level of spiritual insight, claiming for her visions of Christ and angels, and even one appearance of Jesus "in the flesh"! This person allegedly had visions and visitations that exceeded any of the apostles' experiences, which would suggest a woman of unique spirituality. Yet, simpler Christians, who have never claimed to have one vision, have kept their faith through the greatest imaginable disappointments from God.
I have known a number of people (mostly women, but not all) who believed they had seen Christ or angels, and it seems that most of them fall away from the Lord (this is not universally the case). This phenomenon leads me to suspect that what they took to be visions of heavenly beings were either imaginary or else seducing spirits. Eliphaz, Job's "friend", had such an experience (Job 4:12-21). It led him astray.
Promises of God come true to those who trust in Him. That is so often declared in the Psalms, the prophets and the New Testament, that one who insists that it is not so would be compelled to declare himself an adherent to a different religion from that which is revealed in the Bible.
Your error, if I do not misjudge, is that you consider what you call your "discernment" to be self-validating. You take at face value that your friend's visions were genuinely from God (yet, if she has now lost her faith, she must no longer believe that they were!). You are too subjective, too experience-oriented, and too undiscerning in the ways that scripture calls upon us to be discerning.
For example, if a spirit gave your friend a promise, and it didn't come true, the promise was not from God. We know this because even Moses said that this is the very way to discern between true and false prophecy (Deut.18:22). When I say that you place your subjective discernment above the authority of scripture, I am not just taking cheap shots. I am pointing out the very thing that you have been doing throughout this entire discussion: you reject the test given by Moses, because believing it would raise questions about the validity of your, or your friend's, discernment.
You wondered whether I would like for you to post the Jewish beliefs that you have discerned to be the truth. You may do so, if you like. However, if those who read this forum do not automatically accept your discernment on the matter, and we judge by scripture, you shouldn't become offended. If you will be offended, then it would be best not to post them.
**************************
Now to some miscellaneous points...
You write: "Do you remember that I asked, on that same thread, where the reply that I had posted that morning went? I wasn't sure if you, as moderator, had either closed the thread or deleted my reply, but I wasn't going to make any accusations without knowing the facts."
Good choice. I deleted nothing and never saw your post. I never delete posts, except in extremely rare cases when someone writes something deliberately nonsensical, sacriligious, or in very bad taste. You may surf this forum and see that I do not delete posts by people who disagree with me, or who insult me. I am a teacher. I invite criticism of my positions. I am also a grown-up and am not offended by personal insults.
You write: "As far as 'counseling a woman to leave her husband,' I have had personal experience with extremely abusive husbands in the past...What I was attempting to talk about with this woman who posted on the forum about her marital problems was setting proper boundaries. Physical abuse should never be tolerated under any circumstances. Verbal abuse, if it gets to the point of making her relationship with her husband intolerable, then a possible short-term solution would be to separate from - not divorce! - her husband. She could use this space to try to come up with a solution to her marital problems from a more objective perspective, without making an impulsive and emotional decision."
I do not question your motives here, only your wisdom. Your claim that physical or verbal abuse should not be tolerated is questionable, in view of scripture (1 Pet.2:19 thru 3:6). Even if such times exist, in which dangerous abuse would justify the victim's flight (and I suspect such cases do exist), it is impossible to know enough about the situation by hearing one person's side on an internet forum to make that call.
In most cases, you don't know if the person on the internet is telling the truth, or even who they are. You don't know how much the person may be exaggerating the alleged "abuse." This cannot be known with certainty without confirmation from at least two or more witnesses, and the accused husband clearly must be heard and consulted before any kind of advice can properly be given to his wife. He is her head, and outsiders should not interfere with his headship, unless he is committing criminal acts, in which case it is a matter for the police, not a nosey internet correspondent.
An internet forum is definitely not the place for a woman to air her grievances against her husband. Isn't that obvious? It is nothing but gossip, thrown out to a world-wide audience of strangers, who either don't care to know about it, or who are busybodies, who have no business intruding into another's home. It is gossip about a man who is probably not even aware that hundreds of strangers are hearing about his private imperfections, and hearing them from the mouth of the very woman who has sworn that she would honor and cherish him as long as they both shall live! What is there about this that sounds ethical?
You complain: "I'm beginning to realize that no matter what I do or what my real motivation is, people will always find some way to sh-- on me if they can."
Welcome to the real world of following Jesus. Do you think that doesn't happen to us all? Get a flack jacket, or step out of the fray.
I actually sympathize with you when you complain:
"Steve, I'm a highly intelligent person...and I haven't really found a niche where I can feel comfortable and like I "belong." I like sharing things with others and getting comments! Other than this forum, I have little spiritual contact with the wider world. I haven't found a church that I feel comfortable at."
You are not alone. There are many intelligent, thinking Christians. The more you think for yourself, the more dangerous you are likely to be viewed by the church establishment. This requires more grace and humility on your part than would be required if you naturally agreed with those that you wish to associate with. You may know more than does any other Christian you know. If so, you will find some who see you as a valuable resource to be tapped. Unless you support the status quo, however, there will be few leaders in the established church who are comfortable with you sharing your opinions. That is why I am not more involved with an institutional church. "I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for war" (Ps.120:7). The solution is to keep your mouth shut as much as you can righteously do, when you are among those who are threatened by disagreement, and, when you must speak, to adopt as humble and as teachable an attitude as you hope others will have toward you.
As you may recall, when someone on another thread of this forum seemed to be unfairly judging you beyond what, I thought, was justified by your comments, I came to your defense. I thought then (and I think now) that you had not said anything that had deserved that person's criticism.
On the other hand, I have felt compelled to defend others (especially Sean)against you doing just the same thing...judging his motives far more harshly than anything he had said would call for.
Now that I am (as you put it) "judging" you, I assure you that it is based upon ample evidence given in a wide variety of dialogs with you in this forum. The points I made in my previous post (above) are actually found in your posts, and my judgment of you was slow in coming, and as charitable as the evidence will permit.
I did call your motives into question on one point, though I mentioned that my assessment was not "inspired" and, thus, might be mistaken. However, my other observations did not deal with your motives but with your actions.
That you might have done some of these actions through ignorance or immaturity is a possibility that I did not rule out. But when you set yourself up as a teacher, you must know that you thereby invite upon yourself "the stricter judgment" (James 3:1). You should not set yourself up as the defender of a controversial opinion, if you are not thick-skinned enough to handle peer review and scriptural cross-examination without complaining when this occurs.
If you offer yourself as a marriage counselor without knowing basic ethics of counseling, you invite correction to yourself, and should not complain when it comes.
If you tell a group of Christians that God made a promise, didn't keep it, and thus destroyed the faith of a woman, through no fault of her own, you are suggesting two very unbiblical things: 1) that God promises things, but does not keep His promises (i.e., that God lies); and 2) that people who lose their faith are not responsible for their apostasy, but God is. You should not be surprised that you found no Christian who agreed with your assessment. "Let God be true, and every man a liar."
Given your report of your friend's crisis, there are only four possibilities that can be considered: 1) that your friend thought that God made a promise, but was mistaken in her belief about this; or 2) that God has kept, or will keep the promise; or 3) that the promise was conditional, and the conditions were not met to permit its fulfillment; or 4) God lied.
Most of those who have answered you have deduced that the first option is the correct one, and are unwilling to believe the fourth under any circumstances. You, on the other hand, have adamantly ruled-out all but the last. You say that you do not mean to insult God, or to make Him a liar, yet, as you say, you are a highly intelligent man, and must realize that you cannot consistently deny the first three without affirming the fourth. I don't recall you denying the fourth...certainly not with the same conviction as you demonstrate in denying the first three.
As you have sought to refute those who think the first option is most likely, you have made increasingly more incredible claims about your friend's level of spiritual insight, claiming for her visions of Christ and angels, and even one appearance of Jesus "in the flesh"! This person allegedly had visions and visitations that exceeded any of the apostles' experiences, which would suggest a woman of unique spirituality. Yet, simpler Christians, who have never claimed to have one vision, have kept their faith through the greatest imaginable disappointments from God.
I have known a number of people (mostly women, but not all) who believed they had seen Christ or angels, and it seems that most of them fall away from the Lord (this is not universally the case). This phenomenon leads me to suspect that what they took to be visions of heavenly beings were either imaginary or else seducing spirits. Eliphaz, Job's "friend", had such an experience (Job 4:12-21). It led him astray.
Promises of God come true to those who trust in Him. That is so often declared in the Psalms, the prophets and the New Testament, that one who insists that it is not so would be compelled to declare himself an adherent to a different religion from that which is revealed in the Bible.
Your error, if I do not misjudge, is that you consider what you call your "discernment" to be self-validating. You take at face value that your friend's visions were genuinely from God (yet, if she has now lost her faith, she must no longer believe that they were!). You are too subjective, too experience-oriented, and too undiscerning in the ways that scripture calls upon us to be discerning.
For example, if a spirit gave your friend a promise, and it didn't come true, the promise was not from God. We know this because even Moses said that this is the very way to discern between true and false prophecy (Deut.18:22). When I say that you place your subjective discernment above the authority of scripture, I am not just taking cheap shots. I am pointing out the very thing that you have been doing throughout this entire discussion: you reject the test given by Moses, because believing it would raise questions about the validity of your, or your friend's, discernment.
You wondered whether I would like for you to post the Jewish beliefs that you have discerned to be the truth. You may do so, if you like. However, if those who read this forum do not automatically accept your discernment on the matter, and we judge by scripture, you shouldn't become offended. If you will be offended, then it would be best not to post them.
**************************
Now to some miscellaneous points...
You write: "Do you remember that I asked, on that same thread, where the reply that I had posted that morning went? I wasn't sure if you, as moderator, had either closed the thread or deleted my reply, but I wasn't going to make any accusations without knowing the facts."
Good choice. I deleted nothing and never saw your post. I never delete posts, except in extremely rare cases when someone writes something deliberately nonsensical, sacriligious, or in very bad taste. You may surf this forum and see that I do not delete posts by people who disagree with me, or who insult me. I am a teacher. I invite criticism of my positions. I am also a grown-up and am not offended by personal insults.
You write: "As far as 'counseling a woman to leave her husband,' I have had personal experience with extremely abusive husbands in the past...What I was attempting to talk about with this woman who posted on the forum about her marital problems was setting proper boundaries. Physical abuse should never be tolerated under any circumstances. Verbal abuse, if it gets to the point of making her relationship with her husband intolerable, then a possible short-term solution would be to separate from - not divorce! - her husband. She could use this space to try to come up with a solution to her marital problems from a more objective perspective, without making an impulsive and emotional decision."
I do not question your motives here, only your wisdom. Your claim that physical or verbal abuse should not be tolerated is questionable, in view of scripture (1 Pet.2:19 thru 3:6). Even if such times exist, in which dangerous abuse would justify the victim's flight (and I suspect such cases do exist), it is impossible to know enough about the situation by hearing one person's side on an internet forum to make that call.
In most cases, you don't know if the person on the internet is telling the truth, or even who they are. You don't know how much the person may be exaggerating the alleged "abuse." This cannot be known with certainty without confirmation from at least two or more witnesses, and the accused husband clearly must be heard and consulted before any kind of advice can properly be given to his wife. He is her head, and outsiders should not interfere with his headship, unless he is committing criminal acts, in which case it is a matter for the police, not a nosey internet correspondent.
An internet forum is definitely not the place for a woman to air her grievances against her husband. Isn't that obvious? It is nothing but gossip, thrown out to a world-wide audience of strangers, who either don't care to know about it, or who are busybodies, who have no business intruding into another's home. It is gossip about a man who is probably not even aware that hundreds of strangers are hearing about his private imperfections, and hearing them from the mouth of the very woman who has sworn that she would honor and cherish him as long as they both shall live! What is there about this that sounds ethical?
You complain: "I'm beginning to realize that no matter what I do or what my real motivation is, people will always find some way to sh-- on me if they can."
Welcome to the real world of following Jesus. Do you think that doesn't happen to us all? Get a flack jacket, or step out of the fray.
I actually sympathize with you when you complain:
"Steve, I'm a highly intelligent person...and I haven't really found a niche where I can feel comfortable and like I "belong." I like sharing things with others and getting comments! Other than this forum, I have little spiritual contact with the wider world. I haven't found a church that I feel comfortable at."
You are not alone. There are many intelligent, thinking Christians. The more you think for yourself, the more dangerous you are likely to be viewed by the church establishment. This requires more grace and humility on your part than would be required if you naturally agreed with those that you wish to associate with. You may know more than does any other Christian you know. If so, you will find some who see you as a valuable resource to be tapped. Unless you support the status quo, however, there will be few leaders in the established church who are comfortable with you sharing your opinions. That is why I am not more involved with an institutional church. "I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for war" (Ps.120:7). The solution is to keep your mouth shut as much as you can righteously do, when you are among those who are threatened by disagreement, and, when you must speak, to adopt as humble and as teachable an attitude as you hope others will have toward you.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Damon I would recieve it....
Well Damon I think Steves response is a great post for you to read, consider and take to heart. Its full of good points and comes from a person who cares. I will pray that you have a receptive heart and not one which cant recieve insights which are of the Lord in my oppinion. His grace is abundant and overflowing to a child who can humbly recieve advice and insights from brothers and sisters who love ya.
Lord Bless
Steve
Lord Bless
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Thank you Steve G. for a very informative post written in sincere love for the brethren. I pray my christian maturity may come to a heightened level. It is because of your tapes/posts that I have sincerely changed alot of my christian ways.
a friend
a friend
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I only want to answer part of this post, because I don't want to waste any more time on this.
FYI, I've known this friend for about eight years. During that time, I've had many opportunities to witness how God worked in their life. I've had many opportunities to get to know what kind of a personality this person had: whether they were "delusional" or not, whether they were ethical in how they dealt with others, whether they used wisdom in their discernment, etc. From the length of time I've known my friend, I can say with certainty that they're not delusional, they're extremely ethical, and they exercise a great deal of wisdom in their discernment. *shrugs*
It's not just the promise itself that should be considered, but also whether it holds to the standards of truth and love.
I also said that many promises had been fulfilled to my friend. It's only this latest that has been different. And the trouble is, it's the same "still small voice" that claims to be God Himself that made the former promises which did come to pass that made this latest promise which hasn't come to pass. Should I then believe that it wasn't God who made any of those promises? Furthermore, this same "still small voice" has gently corrected my friend when they did sin. Should I then believe that a lying spirit is concerned with what's right and true?
I'm basically at a loss. It seems astronomically unlikely that this could all just be the result of a "lying spirit" who not only miraculously fulfilled promises in the past, but also did so in an unequivocally ethical fashion and has continually upheld the highest standards of ethics. I could choose to believe that God lied - which I'm loathe to do. Finally, I could believe believe that somehow, God will bring a miracle to pass - which I find it very, very difficult to ask my friend to set their heart on. So I feel like I'm stuck.
For the time being, that's where I am. And, unless there's something new to add to the discussion, we should all probably consider it finished. We've all been going in circles for about ten to fifteen posts, now.
By the way, Crusader, I appreciate the time and the energy you've put into your posts regarding this. Both you and Moe prayed your hearts out to God about this situation, and I'm very grateful. If there's anything that can help me at this point, it's someone who's concerned and compassionate.
Thanks again.
Damon
That's where you're mistaken. Go back and read very carefully what I wrote, especially my commentary on Jeremiah 20. I absolutely did not rule out #2 in that post, or in any other. In the past, I've unequivocally ruled out #1 and #3. The question I kept asking was, "If God didn't lie, then what's going on?" It wasn't meant like you seem to think it was meant. I didn't mean that since my friend's circumstances have no answer, then God must have lied.Steve wrote:Given your report of your friend's crisis, there are only four possibilities that can be considered: 1) that your friend thought that God made a promise, but was mistaken in her belief about this; or 2) that God has kept, or will keep the promise; or 3) that the promise was conditional, and the conditions were not met to permit its fulfillment; or 4) God lied.
Most of those who have answered you have deduced that the first option is the correct one, and are unwilling to believe the fourth under any circumstances. You, on the other hand, have adamantly ruled-out all but the last.
By Christ appearing "bodily," I meant that my friend wasn't dreaming or in some sort of trance. They were awake and conscious at the time. Other than that, I couldn't say exactly what happened. And if you find what I've said hard to believe, fine. Why do you think I'm having such a struggle with it?Steve wrote:As you have sought to refute those who think the first option is most likely, you have made increasingly more incredible claims about your friend's level of spiritual insight, claiming for her visions of Christ and angels, and even one appearance of Jesus "in the flesh"! This person allegedly had visions and visitations that exceeded any of the apostles' experiences, which would suggest a woman of unique spirituality. Yet, simpler Christians, who have never claimed to have one vision, have kept their faith through the greatest imaginable disappointments from God.
I don't see what you're talking about in Job 4 at all, especially considering that the passage explicitly talks about a "vision of the night, when deep sleep falls upon men."Steve wrote:I have known a number of people (mostly women, but not all) who believed they had seen Christ or angels, and it seems that most of them fall away from the Lord (this is not universally the case). This phenomenon leads me to suspect that what they took to be visions of heavenly beings were either imaginary or else seducing spirits. Eliphaz, Job's "friend", had such an experience (Job 4:12-21). It led him astray.
I recently questioned my friend over what they saw again. On the one hand, they claimed that they must have imagined them, but on the other hand they admitted that there was no way to explain their subsequent reaction unless they experienced something.Steve wrote:Your error, if I do not misjudge, is that you consider what you call your "discernment" to be self-validating. You take at face value that your friend's visions were genuinely from God (yet, if she has now lost her faith, she must no longer believe that they were!). You are too subjective, too experience-oriented, and too undiscerning in the ways that scripture calls upon us to be discerning.
FYI, I've known this friend for about eight years. During that time, I've had many opportunities to witness how God worked in their life. I've had many opportunities to get to know what kind of a personality this person had: whether they were "delusional" or not, whether they were ethical in how they dealt with others, whether they used wisdom in their discernment, etc. From the length of time I've known my friend, I can say with certainty that they're not delusional, they're extremely ethical, and they exercise a great deal of wisdom in their discernment. *shrugs*
God gave a promise to Jeremiah too - that Jerusalem would be destroyed - and for a long time, it didn't come to pass. During that time, should Jeremiah have looked to Deuteronomy 18:22 and believed that it wasn't God who gave that promise, then?Steve wrote:For example, if a spirit gave your friend a promise, and it didn't come true, the promise was not from God. We know this because even Moses said that this is the very way to discern between true and false prophecy (Deut.18:22).
It's not just the promise itself that should be considered, but also whether it holds to the standards of truth and love.
I also said that many promises had been fulfilled to my friend. It's only this latest that has been different. And the trouble is, it's the same "still small voice" that claims to be God Himself that made the former promises which did come to pass that made this latest promise which hasn't come to pass. Should I then believe that it wasn't God who made any of those promises? Furthermore, this same "still small voice" has gently corrected my friend when they did sin. Should I then believe that a lying spirit is concerned with what's right and true?
I'm basically at a loss. It seems astronomically unlikely that this could all just be the result of a "lying spirit" who not only miraculously fulfilled promises in the past, but also did so in an unequivocally ethical fashion and has continually upheld the highest standards of ethics. I could choose to believe that God lied - which I'm loathe to do. Finally, I could believe believe that somehow, God will bring a miracle to pass - which I find it very, very difficult to ask my friend to set their heart on. So I feel like I'm stuck.
For the time being, that's where I am. And, unless there's something new to add to the discussion, we should all probably consider it finished. We've all been going in circles for about ten to fifteen posts, now.
By the way, Crusader, I appreciate the time and the energy you've put into your posts regarding this. Both you and Moe prayed your hearts out to God about this situation, and I'm very grateful. If there's anything that can help me at this point, it's someone who's concerned and compassionate.
Thanks again.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi
"By the way, Crusader, I appreciate the time and the energy you've put into your posts regarding this. Both you and Moe prayed your hearts out to God about this situation, and I'm very grateful. If there's anything that can help me at this point, it's someone who's concerned and compassionate."
Why not God ????? If you could answer that, you could proably answer the rest of the other questions....if you wanted to.
Steve
Why not God ????? If you could answer that, you could proably answer the rest of the other questions....if you wanted to.
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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