1 Corinthians 2:14

[darinhouston]

seer, I will post more later, but do you equate faith with a simple decision to submit to and follow Christ? Is it possible in your theology to see these things as distinct and that the gift of faith comes following or as a result of that decision ?

[darinhouston]

By the way, I didn't choose to love my wife, but I did choose to marry her and be faithful to her. If I have anything to boast in, it's her choice to marry me and not in my own choice (no matter how glad I am to have made the choice). There's just nothing to boast in for my decision.

[darinhouston]

Remember Darin, you asked for this.

First, the devils believe in God. So what is the difference here? We love God, the devils hate God. So Christian faith is more than mere belief. So you and your finally lost neighbor, by grace, are given the ability to love God - you decide to actually love God, he continues to hate God. You have chosen the supremely good course of action. An action worthy of merit.

Second, I'm not sure what your second objection is. Do you deny that loving God is a supremely good act or do you deny that supremely good acts are worthy of merit?

Why do you insist such a choice is "worthy of merit?"

I have been researching this "Supreme Good" thing -- I still think you need to define your terms and support your proposition that a decision to follow Christ is such a thing (or even Love or Faith, if you insist).

The nearest I can tell, it is a concept "summum bonum" held by the greek and other philosophers et al. to refer to God Himself (they were not so specific as to believe in a personal God, but you get the picture).

So.... you're up... do you have any biblical proof (or even philosophical) as to your proposition -- you asked me if I believed it -- but, it's your proposition -- its your proof to make.

Do you deny that loving God is a supremely good act or do you deny that supremely good acts are worthy of merit?

Neither -- but, I do ask that you define and prove both. (also, it's technically not love we're talking about here -- it's choice).

[Sean]

You are joking right? I agree with Paul 100% That faith is a gift of God. That is why we get no credit. Or don't you believe that faith is a gift of God?

I'm talking about Romans 4. You don't accept what Paul says in Romans 4 because it refutes your position that faith (belief) is deserving of merit.

At this point, I'd like you to answer Darin.

[seer]

By the way, I didn't choose to love my wife, but I did choose to marry her and be faithful to her. If I have anything to boast in, it's her choice to marry me and not in my own choice (no matter how glad I am to have made the choice). There's just nothing to boast in for my decision.

Darin, did you really "choose" to love your wife or did it just happen? I couldn't help "falling in love" with my wife.

[seer]

Remember Darin, you asked for this.

First, the devils believe in God. So what is the difference here? We love God, the devils hate God. So Christian faith is more than mere belief. So you and your finally lost neighbor, by grace, are given the ability to love God - you decide to actually love God, he continues to hate God. You have chosen the supremely good course of action. An action worthy of merit.

Second, I'm not sure what your second objection is. Do you deny that loving God is a supremely good act or do you deny that supremely good acts are worthy of merit?

Why do you insist such a choice is "worthy of merit?"

I have been researching this "Supreme Good" thing -- I still think you need to define your terms and support your proposition that a decision to follow Christ is such a thing (or even Love or Faith, if you insist).

The nearest I can tell, it is a concept "summum bonum" held by the greek and other philosophers et al. to refer to God Himself (they were not so specific as to believe in a personal God, but you get the picture).

So.... you're up... do you have any biblical proof (or even philosophical) as to your proposition -- you asked me if I believed it -- but, it's your proposition -- its your proof to make.

Do you deny that loving God is a supremely good act or do you deny that supremely good acts are worthy of merit?

Neither -- but, I do ask that you define and prove both. (also, it's technically not love we're talking about here -- it's choice).

Darin, if loving God is not a supremely good act then could you give me an example of a supremely good act? Is loving my neighbor a supremely good act? I mean really, if loving God is not a supremely good act then what on earth could be? And technically we are talking about love here - the choice to love God...

[seer]

You are joking right? I agree with Paul 100% That faith is a gift of God. That is why we get no credit. Or don't you believe that faith is a gift of God?

I'm talking about Romans 4. You don't accept what Paul says in Romans 4 because it refutes your position that faith (belief) is deserving of merit.

At this point, I'd like you to answer Darin.

Sean, back to square one. There may be two reasons why faith, according to Paul, is not deserving of merit - because it just isn't by nature - then you run into my logical problem. Or because faith is a unilateral gift of God. An act of God in and through us...

[darinhouston]

By the way, I didn't choose to love my wife, but I did choose to marry her and be faithful to her. If I have anything to boast in, it's her choice to marry me and not in my own choice (no matter how glad I am to have made the choice). There's just nothing to boast in for my decision.

Darin, did you really "choose" to love your wife or did it just happen? I couldn't help "falling in love" with my wife.

I think you need to read what I wrote more carefully -- my point was to distinguish between "loving" my wife and "choosing" to marry her. I did indeed choose to marry her, but like you I couldn't help "falling in love" with her.

[darinhouston]

Darin, if loving God is not a supremely good act then could you give me an example of a supremely good act? Is loving my neighbor a supremely good act? I mean really, if loving God is not a supremely good act then what on earth could be? And technically we are talking about love here - the choice to love God...

I'm begining to think you don't know what you mean either by the term "supremely good act." It's a theological term in this discussion and so I must insist you define it and defend your own assertion. Also, please don't keep changing the discussion -- we're talking first about the simple choice to follow God, and not about our ability to love Him. We can turn to love after we address this preliminary question.

While we're waiting, I would point out that though I still don't know what you mean by supremely good, the bible doesn't define love in those terms, but to answer your question in the abstract about "what on earth could be" X if not loving God, the bible DOES say something qualitative about love -- it doesn't describe love of God as anything but an act of obedience as far as I can tell, but it does provide an example of "greatest" love that a man can have, and that is laying down one's life for a friend. Now, that would be an act of the will, I think, and if I did it, I would expect to hear God say well done faithful servant (is it ok for any act to be worthy of boasting?)

Another question - what does the "goodness" (supreme or otherwise) of a thing have to do with whether we have the freedom to do or not the thing? Are you getting at total depravity here? Seriously, I don't understand your meaning or reason for insistence on using this term.

[seer]

Darin, if loving God is not a supremely good act then could you give me an example of a supremely good act? Is loving my neighbor a supremely good act? I mean really, if loving God is not a supremely good act then what on earth could be? And technically we are talking about love here - the choice to love God...

I'm begining to think you don't know what you mean either by the term "supremely good act." It's a theological term in this discussion and so I must insist you define it and defend your own assertion. Also, please don't keep changing the discussion -- we're talking first about the simple choice to follow God, and not about our ability to love Him. We can turn to love after we address this preliminary question.

While we're waiting, I would point out that though I still don't know what you mean by supremely good, the bible doesn't define love in those terms, but to answer your question in the abstract about "what on earth could be" X if not loving God, the bible DOES say something qualitative about love -- it doesn't describe love of God as anything but an act of obedience as far as I can tell, but it does provide an example of "greatest" love that a man can have, and that is laying down one's life for a friend. Now, that would be an act of the will, I think, and if I did it, I would expect to hear God say well done faithful servant (is it ok for any act to be worthy of boasting?)

Another question - what does the "goodness" (supreme or otherwise) of a thing have to do with whether we have the freedom to do or not the thing? Are you getting at total depravity here? Seriously, I don't understand your meaning or reason for insistence on using this term.

Sorry Darin, I don't think you are being honest here. I think you know exactly what I mean by supremely good. And that loving God is a supremely good act. And for reason I stated above, it certainly does include loving God. Loving God is the highest good - the first greatest command. What is required of us.

Anyway my syllogism stands. I will let the readers decide. You may have the last word.