A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS

[Homer]

Hi Bubba,

The comments by Samual Dawson in you last post seem, IMO, to have nothing to do with the context of Jesus' teaching concerning the fear of God that we all should have.

Dawson:

Notice also in verse 49 that Jesus said:
I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
The fiery judgment of which Jesus spoke was not far off in time and place, but imminent and earthly. In verse 56, Jesus noted that the judgment of which he spoke was imminent, for he said:
Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time?

Regarding verse 49 he assumes the fire is a fire on judgement. But consider the immediate context:

Luke 12:49-55 (New King James Version)

49. “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50. But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51. Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

Notice the underlined parts and the two "I cames". Isn't it most natural to understand the fire in v. 49 as a metaphor for the division that He will bring among families as some accept Him and others deny Him? When you compare the parallel in Matthew 10:34-39 we find the metaphor is a sword rather than fire.

Dawson:

Unquenchable fire is unstoppable! It's fiery destruction brought about by a divine being. In Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised such a national judgment on Judah:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.

And here, ignoring the context, he goes off to Ezekial. I don't see how it is relevant to the context of Matthew 10 and Luke 12.

Dawson:

Thus, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire in Mk. 9.43, he used language that his Jewish listeners would associate with the national judgments God had brought on nations in the Old Testament.

Again, this appears irrelevant to the subject.

Consider a synopsis of Matthew 10:1-42:

Vs. 1-4; Matthew lists the Apostles and Jesus giving power to them for their mission.

Vs. 5-13; The instructions given to them for their mission.

Vs. 14-22; Jesus warns of persecutions from their fellow countrymen (nothing about the Romans or a national judgement as in AD 70).

Vs. Vs. 27-31; Jesus teaches them to fear God, who can cast them into Gehenna after death, and not to fear those who can only kill the body. He also assures them of God's providential care for them.

Vs. 32-33; The blessings of confessing Jesus and danger of denying Him.

Vs. 34-39; Jesus will bring division (the sword) among the closest relatives. In the face of this, His disciples must love Him above all else and bear their cross.

Vs. 40-42; Description of the rewardsof those who choose to follow Jesus.

I can not see where there is anything in this about a national judgement. Jesus is sending them out, they will be persecuted, they are to have no fear of those who can do no more than kill them. God can and will do incomparably more to those who reject Him.

God bless, Homer

[Bubba]

Homer,
I certainly could be wrong with my interpretation of Luke 12:4 as well as Dawson, because this verse is problematic and not easy to explain for a UR person as 1Tim.4:10 and 1John2:2 would be for those who do not believe in universal reconciliation.
In regards to Dawson, he is a Preterist, I am a Partial Preterist, and if you read Luke 12:35-59 and understand that any reference to the soon return of Christ in a Preterist view is judgment upon Israel. Here is the passage in context:

Luke 12:35 -59,"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
Interpreting the Times
54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

Homer wrote; "Notice the underlined parts and the two "I cames". Isn't it most natural to understand the fire in v. 49 as a metaphor for the division that He will bring among families as some accept Him and others deny Him? When you compare the parallel in Matthew 10:34-39 we find the metaphor is a sword rather than fire."

I believe you are probably right, but Scripture often (IMO) can have further meanings, like the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament for the period given and then the N.T.(i.e. Amos 9:9-11, Acts 15:14-16).

Dawson wrote;
"Unquenchable fire is unstoppable! It's fiery destruction brought about by a divine being. In Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised such a national judgment on Judah:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire inyou, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched."

Homer wrote;
"And here, ignoring the context, he goes off to Ezekial. I don't see how it is relevant to the context of Matthew 10 and Luke 12."
Dawson is demonstrating judgment genre of the O.T. with N.T. apocalyptic language in Mt. 10:28 and Luke 12:4 being similar. Ezekiel 20:48, " I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it. 48 Everyone will see that I the LORD have kindled it; it will not be quenched."and Luke 12:49,"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" and Mark 9:43, "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out (never quenched)." Thus, this is why Dawson stated that the Jews would associate this type of language with judgment.

Sword and Fire would be synonymous for judgment and I believe all judgment to be for the good of mankind in this realm or the next.
Grace, Bubba

[Jill]

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[Bubba]

Karenprtlnd,
Why are you a LDS? From my understanding of Mormonism, they do believe in a unbiblical sort of universalism, in that all people go on to a better place. Unlike Mormonism, a Christian Universalist does not believe that one becomes a god (good LDS male) and ends up on their own celestrial planet with their eternally pregnant queen of sorts.
Grace alone in Jesus, Bubba