Jesus is God

[dwight92070]

Revelation 22:1 - "Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB, ..." Notice there's ONLY ONE THRONE. Again in verse 3 - "There will no longer be any curse; AND THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB (ONE THRONE) will be in it, and HIS BOND-SERVANTS (Not their bond-servants) will serve HIM (Not them). The Lamb, Jesus, is God.

[dwight92070]

The very next verse (Revelation 22:4) says: "They will see His face (not their faces), and His name (not their names) will be on their foreheads.

[dwight92070]

Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God (Yahweh) stands forever."
Matthew 24:35 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words (Jesus speaking) will never pass away."

Jesus is Yahweh.

[darinhouston]

Dwight, as I have said before, it is really hard to respond to the scatter gun approach, and we've addressed all of these before (I think), so I'll at least stick to the John reference for now. We've discussed this one at great length in a number of posts -- I'll just refer you back there.

https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6020

[dwight92070]

Dwight, as I have said before, it is really hard to respond to the scatter gun approach, and we've addressed all of these before (I think), so I'll at least stick to the John reference for now. We've discussed this one at great length in a number of posts -- I'll just refer you back there.

https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6020

Dwight - Actually, neither the Revelation 22 verses nor the Isaiah 40:8 compared with Matthew has been discussed here before, to the best of my knowledge. To say that anyone in the Bible who says "I am" must also be claiming to be God is immature and a distraction from the truth. Were they conceived in a virgin's womb who had the Holy Spirit come upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowing her? Did they command the wind and the sea to hush? Did they walk on water? Did they raise the dead and forgive sins by their own power and authority, as Jesus did? Were they called the Son of God by Gabriel at their conception? There is NO comparison whatsoever. For Jesus to say "Before Abraham was born, I am." is infinitely different than anyone else saying "I am". Also, if Jesus wanted to suggest to His listeners that He was not claiming Deity, He easily could have said "Before Abraham was born, I already existed.", although even preexistence, itself, is reserved for God alone, since He became a man. 1 Timothy 3:16 No human, except Jesus, has ever preexisted.

Dwight - It is likely that Jesus was claiming to be the "I am He" and the "I am" of Isaiah 41:4; 43:10,13; 47:8; 48:12; 51:12; 52:6; and 58:9.

[dwight92070]

Well, you've had four days to respond to Revelation 22:1-4 and Isaiah 40:8, so it can't be all that hard to respond to my "scattergun" posts.
So, I'll put one more bullet into my scattergun.

The ten leprous men in Luke 17:11-19 - when the one man, the Samaritan, turned back, it says: "... he turned back, glorifying GOD with a loud voice, and he fell on his face at HIS feet, giving thanks to HIM." In verse 18, Jesus said, "Was no one found who returned to give glory to GOD, except this foreigner?"

Who was the Samaritan glorifying? Well, it says "GOD", but he was on his face at JESUS' feet, praising JESUS with a loud voice. Even Jesus said that the man was glorifying GOD, by worshiping at HIS feet.

If Jesus is not God, then why would the man have to return to HIM, in order to glorify God. He could have glorified God right where he was, without returning to Jesus.

The answer cannot be that the man was glorifying Jesus (who was not God), in order to glorify God, because he would be guilty of idolatry. To worship someone who is not God, is not pleasing to God. It is breaking the first and second commandment.

[darinhouston]

Life's been busy - and again there's a muddle of disparate issues raised as if they're related to one another (apart from peripherally relevant to the larger issue) - you may not see it as a shotgun, but it's a mess of a way to have a meaningful dialogue.

Briefly, Revelation is almost never literal in its imagery and using it the way you do is unwise - distinguishing a singular reference to a metaphoric and impressionistic image of a throne where elsewhere Christ is "at the throne" of God and seated at the right hand of God isn't very compelling. A single "throne" could have two chairs - and there's unlikely even a chair - again, it's an impressionistic image. God is ruling all - Jesus has been given rule and is and will rule the creation.

Isaiah and Matthew passages? That's a REAL stretch - if proven elsewhere it might have some supportive value, but passages like this are borrowed and re-used - besides, it's not the same language and is at least as likely to be a general figure of speech expressing the certainty of what is to come. And Christ is at least an agent of God and would have the same authority to justify such a connection.

The leprous man is also a reach to my mind - it really depends on your pre-suppositions how you see this - but, it is perfectly reasonable, especially in that culture for someone to turn to the provider of a gift and honor that individual right there in front of them even if they are a messenger of the gift from another (like a ruler). He can easily be seen to be praising and worshipping God while thanking Jesus for bringing the gift to him? There is no reason other than pre-supposition to believe that the leprous man thought Jesus was himself God.

[dwight92070]

I think Revelation 3:21 sheds some light on the topic. Apparently Jesus currently sits with His Father on the Father's throne, which is reserved for God alone.

Isaiah and Matthew verses? They couldn't parallel each other more perfectly. There's no stretch here whatsoever.

The leper? Obviously, He is worshiping Jesus, who is God. Jesus said it Himself - the man returned to glorify God - that is, Jesus Himself.

[dwight92070]

Now for a real mess - let's look at more evidence:

If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to be born supernaturally, like nobody else? If He is just a man, even a glorified man, a natural birth would be all that was necessary. But of course, He was not just a man, or just a glorified man. He was God in the flesh.

Peter told Jesus, after His resurrection, "Lord You know all things ..." John 21:17 The last time I checked, God is the only ONE Who knows all things. Apparently Peter is acknowledging that Jesus is God.

[darinhouston]

Now for a real mess - let's look at more evidence:

If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to be born supernaturally, like nobody else? If He is just a man, even a glorified man, a natural birth would be all that was necessary. But of course, He was not just a man, or just a glorified man. He was God in the flesh.

Peter told Jesus, after His resurrection, "Lord You know all things ..." John 21:17 The last time I checked, God is the only ONE Who knows all things. Apparently Peter is acknowledging that Jesus is God.

If he wasn't a man, then he wasn't the second Adam. And couldn't be tempted like us. And supernatural conception was required to avoid original sin and so that he was uniquely the son of God. And so forth. These are pretty basic things you can just look up. Clearly John 21:17 doesn't mean exhaustive foreknowledge like God. Jesus couldn't be more plain when he speak of the Father alone knowing some things, etc. No classic trinitarian I'm aware of believes Jesus had omnisciences or that this is what Peter meant (who really just met Jesus and couldn't have had any such notion at that time even if he may have later).