Questions for the non-full preterist

[Allyn]

Hi steve7150,
The age to come is eternal life but it is the eternal life we experience now that the Kingdom of God is fully in place. When Jesus returned at the end of the age, shown to be at the destruction of the temple, it was at that time that Jesus came with His angels and in glory to finally, once and for all, secure the kingdom God and His kingship. I will address this in more depth in another post.



Hi Allyn,
One of the difficulties i have is the continuence and even dominance of evil which seemlessly continued right on through 70AD as if Christ's return in 70AD had no effect on it.
My understanding of scripture is that evil ends at some point and If Christ returning is not enough, then what is?

Steve7150, this is a question having been asked by others. Its a fair question and the answer may not yet convince you but I will give you how I have rationalized it.

Its true that evil is still in the world and it seems even more so today then ever before (probably not though). The world, meaning those outside of Christ, just seems to continue doing what it has always done. We ask ourselves and maybe more so God, when will this all end? When will the killing of babies stop and when will the rapes and stealing and the general injustice we see all around us stop? Seemingly valid questions.


Jesus claimed to be the peacemaker and His life was an utter example for us and all who simply even call Him just a good man. But yet the Scriptures do not speak of a world that is free from sin and what's more even the Christian is not immune from. So then, one might say, it is going to take an iron hand to end this perpetual madness we all live in and around. But the Bible does not teach this either and who really would want a tyrant ruling us and controling our every move, word or though? Where is there freedom in Christ in that?

What does the Bible teach? Daniel, when he was given the prophecy of the Messiah, spoke of the way things were going to be under the reign of Christ. The angel told Daniel that:
24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
These were things that Daniels people were going to experience and at least by the end when the annointing of the most Holy (Jesus)would be accomplished. The angel was not just listing these things as they came to his head but was telling that these things, in their order, were going to be accomplished in total by the time of the annointing of Christ. Notice one of those elements is exactly related to your question. So the question would then need to be - Do I accept the word of the Bible and this prophecy spoken concerning Daniel and his people and rely on the fact that God cannot lie? Or do I continue to doubt the validity of any statement like this when my eyes can see that sin is still around?

Personally I chose to accept it even though at the time I did not understand it. And when I did finally understand the truth of this so many other truths became clearer. I could see clearer that it is not me who determines the call of sin or not but rather God as He looks at His Son who now stands before me (in front of me) in the presense of the AllMighty God. God who was well pleased with His Son. Jesus who by no other way can we come to the Father.

We are now a full citizens of that holy city - the city of God where the gates are left open and all can enter in if only they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

[Allyn]

Also i was just thinking that at the end of Matthew and Mark, Jesus disciples are told to preach the gospel to every creature in the world and he will be with us until the end of the age. If 70AD is the end of the age , what happened to the rest of the 90% of the world that never heard the gospel?

The Apostle Paul says:

And this Gospel was preached to the whole world.
Scripture reference escapes me at this time.

[steve7150]

What does the Bible teach? Daniel, when he was given the prophecy of the Messiah, spoke of the way things were going to be under the reign of Christ. The angel told Daniel that:
24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,




Allyn,
I understand that the above can apply to those in Christ and not to the world in general. However in 1st Cor 15.24 Paul said "Then the end will come , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion , authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
I'm just not understanding how or where or in what manner any dominion,authority and power which is contrary to Christ has been destroyed in 70AD? To me this verse sounds like an end to all evil , not just evil in the hearts of believers.
Another words for the Preterist view to make sense it has to consistently make sense and at least to me i can't reconcile several things like the above. Also regarding the gospel being preached throughout the world, Paul had to be using an idiom or expression which meant the Roman world. Is that what Jesus meant by the great commission? Preach it throughout the Roman world only, when after 70AD it desperately still needed to be preached to the rest of the world.

[Allyn]

Allyn,
I understand that the above can apply to those in Christ and not to the world in general. However in 1st Cor 15.24 Paul said "Then the end will come , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion , authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."


I'm just not understanding how or where or in what manner any dominion,authority and power which is contrary to Christ has been destroyed in 70AD? To me this verse sounds like an end to all evil , not just evil in the hearts of believers.
Another words for the Preterist view to make sense it has to consistently make sense and at least to me i can't reconcile several things like the above. Also regarding the gospel being preached throughout the world, Paul had to be using an idiom or expression which meant the Roman world. Is that what Jesus meant by the great commission? Preach it throughout the Roman world only, when after 70AD it desperately still needed to be preached to the rest of the world.

steve7150

What will it take for you then steve? Because all we have is what we are told has happened. Its up to each individual to accept those things whether we understand completely or not. But we are not left without some help.
I want to share with you something out of Hebrews that may help explain better the timing of when these things you are doubting about came to completeness.
Its from Hebrews 10:
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

As you can see verses 12-14 speak of what Jesus had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins. You notice, of course, that at the time of the writing of Hebrews Jesus had been waiting to make His enemies his footstool. And then the Hebrew writer quotes an interesting passage from Jer. 31 in which the writer says that from this passage the Holy Spirit testifies of these things mentioned in verses 12-14.
Christians realize that this passage from Jeremiah is the New Covenant passage which God said He would make with His people.
Somehow the Hebrew writer is making a corolation here between the enemies being made His footstool and the timing of the New Covenant.
Preterists understand that the New Covenant came fully in at the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. We also realize that it is then that the wait for Jesus to make His enemies His footstool is over and that it is at that time that :
Then the end will come , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion , authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

This is the exact timing of the kingdom of God coming fully in and it is by no mere coincidence that those things I responded to earlier that concerned you have also been fully taken care of in the finished work of Christ.

[steve7150]

Somehow the Hebrew writer is making a corolation here between the enemies being made His footstool and the timing of the New Covenant.
Preterists understand that the New Covenant came fully in at the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. We also realize that it is then that the wait for Jesus to make His enemies His footstool is over and that it is at that time that




Allyn,
I want you to know i'm not trying to do anything other then understand the preterists thinking process on this and i am learning. I can see how you can conclude the connection you are making but one can also see the New Covenant being initiated on the cross as John 12 says Jesus defeated Satan on the cross. Therefore one can just as easily say Jesus initiated the New Covenant through his shed blood on the cross when he said "it is finished" , and he defeated Satan also (John 12.31) and Pentecost visibly confirmed the New Covenant. What does Pentecost mean to the Preterist if there was no New Covenant until 70AD?
Anyway i'm sure it's not easy defending your position against what seem like an onslaught but i give you credit for standing up for what you think is true though i disagree.

[Allyn]

steve,
I think you know, however, that even though these things like the New Covenant, the binding of Satan, the Kingdom of God had there certain beginning at the ministry of Jesus. But now where will you find these things to have been settled yet once and for all - that is not until all things pertaining to Israel were likewise settled. The resurrection of the dead was the most important promise made to the Jews and it had its assurance through the resurrection of the Christ. But yet it had not yet occurred even though it surely was just around the corner.

Brother, it wil not be I who will convince you - it must come from your study and your desire to look into these things. This is how we all came to where we are though the influence of others is sometimes vital.

I remember Steve Greggs story on how he left dispensationalism and stepped into the partial preterist camp. It was through one question put to him.

I want to ask you one question - is the truth important enough for you to look at it from an angle otherwise uncomfortable for you? It was for me.

[Allyn]

steve7150 said:

What does Pentecost mean to the Preterist if there was no New Covenant until 70AD?

The NC did not have its start at pentecost nor did the Gospel message have its end at 70AD. But in between those two events people were told to work out the salvation. This is one reason we see the variety of parable on what the kingdom of God was likened unto. and this is one reason we can tell that the kingdom had not come in fully. What we do see is the time of preperation of the new founded church until the perfect had come. We see that it would be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom. We learn that it is better to go into the kingdom missing an eye then for the whole body to be cast into hell.

I think these misunderstandings of the post 1st century church have been the reason we flounder so much in achoring our trust is the truth which the 1st century church enjoyed. We have come a long way and I believe the full-preterist view point is going to be the most acceptable view in time. But after all, we have all the time we need.

[steve7150]

I want to ask you one question - is the truth important enough for you to look at it from an angle otherwise uncomfortable for you? It was for me.


Allyn,
Preterism does'nt cause me any discomfort. Jesus is Lord and he reigns and that's what really matters. As far as being in the majority goes, if you're with God you're with the only opinion that matters.
I only wish that there would'nt be unpleasentness between believers with different viewpoints particularly since Paul said we all are looking through a dark glass for now.

[Allyn]

I agree with you steve. Especially that last statement. But then this is a discussion board so if we are here we just as well discuss the topic.

[Mellontes]

Also i was just thinking that at the end of Matthew and Mark, Jesus disciples are told to preach the gospel to every creature in the world and he will be with us until the end of the age. If 70AD is the end of the age , what happened to the rest of the 90% of the world that never heard the gospel?

The Apostle Paul says:

And this Gospel was preached to the whole world.
Scripture reference escapes me at this time.

Allyn, here are the Scriptures regarding the subject of the Gospel being preached to all the world:

Prophecy:

Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Fulfillment:

Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].

Prophecy:

Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fulfillment:

Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Prophecy:

Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].

Fulfillment:

Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Prophecies:

Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].

Fulfillment:

Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:

Prophecy:

Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].

Fulfillment:

Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.

If the Apostle Paul said the gospel WAS PREACHED to all the world, should we accept what he said and re-examine what the word "world" means in his context? Jesus said the same thing in Matthew 24:14...

Matthew 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We get into exegetical trouble when we assume that the "end" that shall come is based upon some kind of planetary interpretation...If Paul said he preached the gospel to the whole world, does it not demand that one rethink their views concerning the "end."?