Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)

[Jason]

Hey, Steve. No need to defend yourself further as I wasn't trying to get you to backpedal or anything. Discussions that go in circles drive me bonkers so if that's about to happen let's just kill it now. I don't feel like my views on this subject have been challened by the scriptures you presented but that wasn't the goal of this thread since I was the one who called you out. I probably won't do this again because I'm a little too familiar with your views by this point... having gone through your lectures enough to anticipate your reponse. Not sure if that's good or bad.

Did you get my e-mail?

[Paidion]

However, for those who grew up being told they are not wanted and have no value, this can cause some unhealthy mental issues and it helps to show such individuals that they are indeed valuable to God. This wouldn't be a matter of teaching them self-love but rather showing them something that's true (God values them) and removing a false idea (nobody loves them) from their minds.

Jason, I completely agree. We all need all the love and encouragement that we can get. Giving others love and/or encouragement is quite a different matter from building their self-esteem and expanding their self-love, isn't it?

[steve]

Jason wrote:

Did you get my e-mail?

Yes, thanks for reminding me. I just sent off a reply.

[Jason]

Jason, I completely agree. We all need all the love and encouragement that we can get. Giving others love and/or encouragement is quite a different matter from building their self-esteem and expanding their self-love, isn't it?

Absolutely. I recently watched a lecture given by "spiritual guru" Dr. Dwayne Dyer because it was on PBS and I only have a couple other channels. The entire presentation was based on self love and using that to commune with "the source" which is his word for God. It's similar to that story given in 'The Secret" where one guy brags that he was able to, with positive thinking, get the best parking spot at the grocery store. I couldn't help but think it would be more pleasing to God if one gave up the best parking spot instead. Why is getting what you want at the expense of others a pursuit for so many who are seeking spiritual enlightenment. By the way, hearing Dr. Dyer quote the scriptures was QUITE amusing. He hasn't even made it into the category of eisegesis yet!

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

So we do not have to be taught self-love. All of us already possess it.

This is certainly true. We are born selfish. I am not interested in defending Bernard; he stands on his own merits. But he might have in mind something more than what you are thinking of.

We do not love our neighbor by giving him whatever he wants. He is also a person who by nature loves himself. We love our neighbor by giving him what is in his best interest, which may not be what he wants. The same principle applies to ourselves. Denying certain things to ourself is in our best interest.

And many people do not truly love themselves. They may be filled with self loathing, and they may engage in all sorts of things that are not in their interest. If they really loved themselves in the best sense, they would follow Jesus.

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

Sorry if I am trying your patience, but we seem to be talking past each other. The only concern I have is in regard to a point I thought we agreed on but then I became unsure in this discussion. The point is this: Are people at step 2 of Bernard's "ladder of love" saved?

I had written:

What I thought you were saying was that a person at step 2 was not a Christian, that only those at step 3 are saved. I believe all (or almost all) who come to Christ do so at step 2. If they never progress to step 3, which they should, I can not say they are lost if they are trusting in Jesus and have yielded to him as Lord.

It would seem to me the thief on the cross was at this step.

Please clarify this point for me.

Blessings & thanks, Homer

[kaufmannphillips]

"Be not like servants who minister to their master upon the condition of receiving a reward; but be like servants who minister to their master without the condition of receiving a reward; and let the fear of Heaven be upon you."

Mishnah Avot 1:3, trans. Joseph Hertz

[steve7150]

"Be not like servants who minister to their master upon the condition of receiving a reward; but be like servants who minister to their master without the condition of receiving a reward; and let the fear of Heaven be upon you."

Mishnah Avot 1:3, trans. Joseph Hertz





Emmet isn't avoiding the wrath of God a reward of sorts in that your quote emphasizes "the fear of Heaven" should be upon you?

[Jason]

Steve, I didn't get that e-mail. Did it bounce?

[steve]

Jason,

No, it didn't bounce. In fact, I have already gotten a response to it from you (unless it was another Jason, in which case, I am not sure if I got your email). The one I responded to was titled, "A friend in need..."