Daniels' Seventy Sevens

[RND]

Amen Mellontes! Amen.

Now, if we could just figure out what "times and laws" that Jerusalem changed we'd be all set! Any ideas?!

Nope

Rome changes times and laws. Changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and altered the Ten Commandments.

Dan 7:25 And he (the Little Horn) shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

"Times"

"Question--Have you any other way of proving that the church [Roman Catholic] has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Answer--Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modem religionists agree with her--she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is not Scriptural authority." A Doctrinal Catechism, by Rev. Stephen Keenan, page 174

"The Catholic church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." (The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons,Sept.23, 1893).

"Question--Which is the Sabbath day?" Answer--Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question--Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"
"Answer--We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday," (The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p.50, Third Edition, 1913, a work which received the "apostolic blessing" of Plus X, Jan. 25, 1910).

In 1562 the Archbishop declared that tradition now stood above scripture. “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord's day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ's teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” Gaspare de Posso Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

"and laws."

The Ten Commandments
Catholic Version

I.
I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me!

II.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain!

III.
Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day!

IV.
Honor your father and your mother!

V.
You shall not kill!

VI.
You shall not commit adultery!

VII.
You shall not steal!

VIII.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor!

IX.
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife!

X.
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods!

[Mellontes]

Rome changes times and laws. Changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and altered the Ten Commandments.

Dan 7:25 And he (the Little Horn) shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

"Times"

"Question--Have you any other way of proving that the church [Roman Catholic] has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Answer--Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modem religionists agree with her--she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is not Scriptural authority." A Doctrinal Catechism, by Rev. Stephen Keenan, page 174

"The Catholic church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." (The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons,Sept.23, 1893).

"Question--Which is the Sabbath day?" Answer--Saturday is the Sabbath day.
"Question--Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"
"Answer--We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday," (The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p.50, Third Edition, 1913, a work which received the "apostolic blessing" of Plus X, Jan. 25, 1910).

In 1562 the Archbishop declared that tradition now stood above scripture. “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord's day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ's teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” Gaspare de Posso Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

Actually, my take on the Sabbath is quite different than most. The earthly life of Israel and its connection to the old covenant were simply shadows to come in Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 4 it talks about entering into His rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and shadows and types. Jesus is the rest. He is my Sabbath. In him, I rest. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I am getting used to that...

[anochria]

Actually, my take on the Sabbath is quite different than most. The earthly life of Israel and its connection to the old covenant were simply shadows to come in Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 4 it talks about entering into His rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and shadows and types. Jesus is the rest. He is my Sabbath. In him, I rest. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I am getting used to that...

You've got my agreement . That's not to say it's not good to purposefully rest on the day you celebrate the Lord's day, but, I think your interpretation of Hebrews 4 is accurate. Plus, it wasn't the "Roman Catholic Church" that started the shift toward Sunday, it was the infant Church.

[RND]

Actually, my take on the Sabbath is quite different than most. The earthly life of Israel and its connection to the old covenant were simply shadows to come in Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 4 it talks about entering into His rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and shadows and types. Jesus is the rest. He is my Sabbath. In him, I rest. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I am getting used to that...

Believe it or not I didn't add the information I did in an attempt to enter into a discussion regarding the sabbath and the points you brought up I have heard many times before. To me they are generalities that need to be addressed, but not here. We're talking specifically about the weeks of Daniel 9. Understanding Daniel 7 completely helps us to see that Jerusalem isn't the epicenter of Mystery Babylon, Rome is.

The question that needs to be answered, so we can achieve greater understanding of Daniel 7 and Daniel 9 is trying to find answers to questions. The question and answer I gave point to Rome. "Who changes 'times and laws?'"

Rome does. History shows that it is the RCC that "legislated" these 'times and laws' out of existence. No other group nor entity has ever made laws against the sabbath and "judaizing" like Rome has.

Council Laodicea - A.D.365

Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6.

POGM has a great video on the "Whore of Babylon" that explains so much.

[RND]

You've got my agreement . That's not to say it's not good to purposefully rest on the day you celebrate the Lord's day, but, I think your interpretation of Hebrews 4 is accurate. Plus, it wasn't the "Roman Catholic Church" that started the shift toward Sunday, it was the infant Church.

There are many instances in recorded history where sabbath keeping was frowned upon. However, the sabbath actually made it much easier for Christians to be rounded up and put into battle with the lions and tigers!

However, since this thread isn't about "the sabbath" but the prophecy of Daniel 9 I'll defer. If you'd like to enter into a discussion about the sabbath and the incorrect interpretation of Hebrews 4, start a thread. Otherwise, maybe we should try to stay on point.

Do you have and opinion as to who changes "times and laws?"

[anochria]

I see that passage in Daniel as referring to Greco-Roman-Herodian manipulation of the Jewish sacrificial system.

Since times and dates and festivals no longer matter in the new covenant, and these prophecies fit into the time period before or during the first advent of Christ, we have no reason to speculate that they're about the RCC church just because they happened to make some rulings about the Sabbath.

[RND]

I see that passage in Daniel as referring to Greco-Roman-Herodian manipulation of the Jewish sacrificial system.

And yet the Gospels clearly show us that these feasts, festivals, special sabbaths and holy days were still observed in there proper time frame and context throughout the times you mentioned.

Since times and dates and festivals no longer matter in the new covenant,

Some believe they still adequately point to the second coming of Christ, such as Messianics and certain other sabbatarian groups.

and these prophecies fit into the time period before or during the first advent of Christ,

And still today.

we have no reason to speculate that they're about the RCC church just because they happened to make some rulings about the Sabbath.

Then we need to find what other groups used "legislation" on the pains of death or torture to "eliminate" these times and laws.

[anochria]

I just have time for this right now:

Some believe they still adequately point to the second coming of Christ, such as Messianics and certain other sabbatarian groups.

And that's great. Festivals and seasons can be a powerful way to celebrate the deep truths and heritage of our faith. But these things aren't mandatory and should not cause division. And, since they are not mandatory, it hardly seems like a deep catastrophe for an "antichrist" figure to come along and switch them up, as it certainly was during the days of the Old Covenant.

More later as I have time.

[RND]

And that's great. Festivals and seasons can be a powerful way to celebrate the deep truths and heritage of our faith. But these things aren't mandatory and should not cause division.

I never suggested they were mandatory nor required. But it does help explain why more and more Christians are returning to learn of these things. Nor have I presented these facts in an attempt to cause division. If you feel that this is the case it can only be from your perceptions and not anything I have posted.

I was one who at one time believed Colossians 2:13-17 was signifying that the "ceremonial laws" were indeed "nailed to the cross" it was Messianics, through explaining the Bible to me, that showed me Paul was actually encouraging the Jewish converts to Christianity in Colosse not to worry about being judged for keeping these old feasts.

And, since they are not mandatory, it hardly seems like a deep catastrophe for an "antichrist" figure to come along and switch them up, as it certainly was during the days of the Old Covenant.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not referring to the law kept on the "outside" of the Ark of the Covenant but the actual words of the Covenant kept "inside" the Ark.

The sabbath and Ten Commandments are not "ceremonial" law. They are specifically the description of the nature and character of God which were at first "spoken" and then written on stone.

Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The laws that Rome has attempted to change, through legislation, are these.

[Mellontes]

Actually, my take on the Sabbath is quite different than most. The earthly life of Israel and its connection to the old covenant were simply shadows to come in Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 4 it talks about entering into His rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and shadows and types. Jesus is the rest. He is my Sabbath. In him, I rest. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I am getting used to that...

Believe it or not I didn't add the information I did in an attempt to enter into a discussion regarding the sabbath and the points you brought up I have heard many times before. To me they are generalities that need to be addressed, but not here. We're talking specifically about the weeks of Daniel 9. Understanding Daniel 7 completely helps us to see that Jerusalem isn't the epicenter of Mystery Babylon, Rome is.

The question that needs to be answered, so we can achieve greater understanding of Daniel 7 and Daniel 9 is trying to find answers to questions. The question and answer I gave point to Rome. "Who changes 'times and laws?'"

Rome does. History shows that it is the RCC that "legislated" these 'times and laws' out of existence. No other group nor entity has ever made laws against the sabbath and "judaizing" like Rome has.

Council Laodicea - A.D.365

Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6.

POGM has a great video on the "Whore of Babylon" that explains so much.

Should you ever come across the following book and have the opportunity to read it, it will be well worth your while...

Who Is This Babylon? (337 pp, pb) - Don Preston $19.95
New Expanded Second Edition. Proves that Jerusalem is the harlot city "Babylon" mentioned in the book of Revelation. Explains the tight connection between Revelation, Matthew 24, and Paul's eschatology. Powerful exposition of the Apocalypse, especially on the "Jerusalem" identity of Babylon. Proves Revelation was written before and fulfilled by the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Best defense of the 40-year millennium theory I have ever seen. One of Preston's most powerful books ever.

It can be ordered at http://www.preterist.org/preteristbookstore.asp

Until you read this book you no doubt will still think that Rome is the one. One thng though, the Rome (Papal system) you speak of seems to be different than the one the inspired personnel wrote of (Roman Empire-4th kingdom-the oikumene of Luke 2:1)