Crusader

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_Damon
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Post by _Damon » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:26 pm

Homer wrote:Damon,
My sympathy to your and your friend in your struggles with faith. I would encourage you to read a book that helped me a lot. Its titled "Yet Will I Trust Him" by John Mark Hicks. I bought it through Amazon. Hicks writes as a theologian who has suffered immensly; he brought me to tears more than once and yet the book has the theological aspect also. Check the reviews posted at Amazon.
I'll take a look. Thanks.
Homer wrote:I am most curious about how your friend received a promise from God. Has he/she "tested the spirits" to see if the promise was from God?
Yes, many times.
Homer wrote:I have been a Christian for many years but have never thougt that God promised me anything that wasn't in His word (scripture). Perhaps I'm not "pentecostal" enough but I believe God speaks to me through His word with His Spirit within me.
God speaks to my friend in different ways. Not only does God talk to my friend the way I'm talking with you now, He also brings to mind passages in Scripture and uses dreams to communicate things that are important. If God has worked with you differently, there's certainly nothing wrong with the one or the other approach.

[snip]
Homer wrote:The only complaint I ever heard of her making was the question "why do bad things always happen to me". Her faith never wavered.
I respect that. But again, it's more than just suffering bad things. There's also the promise of God involved.
Homer wrote:"till we've all gone to Jesus, we can only wonder why" (Gillian Welch).
Or maybe, if we're lucky (like Moses or Jeremiah), we'll get an answer before that.

Damon
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Election and Grace

Post by _CFChristian » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:29 pm

It is the teaching of Calvinists, even today, that God has elected Christians to be His children and to inherit eternal life, while all others have been predestined to hell. Those that believe such a false doctrine would also have to believe as Calvin taught, that even babies who are not part of the elect of God would go to hell if they were to die. Those who do not claim all five points of Calvinism, but still hold to the fifth point, may not believe the same concerning the unsaved, but do believe the same concerning the saved. In other words, they do believe in predestination of the saints, but do not claim to believe in double predestination. Those who are save they refer to as the “Elect” of God. To them the reason for this election by God is because of His own choice, He elected some for salvation and others He did not. It is not hard to see the difficulty here: since if some are predestined to heaven while others are not, the only option for those who are not is eternity in hell. So even those who do not claim doubles predestination cannot avoid its necessity through this teaching. Their attempt is to avoid having to accept or teach that a baby that may not have been one of God’s elect and would happen to die might go to hell.

In their doctrine of election, those who are elected to salvation by His foreknowledge can in no way lose their salvation, because God would not elect them only to lose them. But this understanding of election is incorrect. Modern Calvinists have created a dilemma by drifting towards the Arminian views. True Calvinists do not consider them Calvinists at all, since they have accepted many of the views of Calvin as incorrect. Although they still hold to certain parts of each point, they have changed on a few areas. This change toward the Arminian views sounds good, but it leaves a lot of confusion. For example: as mentioned, Modern Calvinists may not believe that a baby that dies will go to hell if it is not one of God’s elect. But to believe in an elect few and not believe it in the way Calvin taught leaves a contradiction in their doctrine. There can be no in between view on this issue! Even we must believe as Calvin taught, or reject his teachings completely. In putting together his five points, Calvin created a doctrine in which all five points are necessary. Modern Calvinists leave big holes in the doctrine by leaving out certain views of Calvin that are clearly heresy. So they try to find a balance. But there is no balance in false teaching. All five points must be rejected as Calvin taught them. Calvinist doctrines are not “holy” as many might suppose, but they are “full of holes”!

The word “elect” in the Greek is eklektos (ek-lek-tos'); select; by implication, favorite. What could possibly make us a favorite to God, except for the fact that we have received His Son into our lives, becoming children of God? This is not indicating that we were chosen while others are rejected, but that because we have made the right choice in turning our lives over to Him that we have become His favorites among mankind and received as His own. The Bible says that Christ will draw “all” men unto Him, but not all men will respond to His drawing. It is because of His grace that all men are drawn to salvation, but only a few respond. Without His drawing no man could be saved! So this still does not indicate works salvation or even disprove total depravity before salvation. But we are His favorites because we have responded to His grace, the drawing of His Spirit, and received Jesus as our Lord and savior through faith. A sinner could never be a favorite to God. But in the doctrine of election, Christians are chosen as God’s “elect” before they were ever born. God’s favorites are and always have been those who choose to do right, and not until they actually do what is right, and not before. Any possible election prior to our salvation is purely by the foreknowledge of God. He knows who will respond to the gospel. But the scriptures that refer to God choosing man were never for salvation, but for His divine purpose.



John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.” The Calvinists will use this scripture to say that we could not choose God, but that He chose us. But every scripture pertaining to God’s choosing people were always for His specific purpose in serving Him. It was never God’s choosing a man to be saved alone, but choosing specific people to be disciples, Apostles, Prophets, or to whatever purpose God had planned.



Acts 1:24-25 “And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”



Acts 9:15 “But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.” The Bible clearly states that man must choose who or what they will serve. Joshua 24:15 “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”



In Ephesians 1 where Paul said that He had “chosen us in him before the foundation of the world”, indicates Gods choosing of all who will receive His gift of salvation. God chose that all who would receive Christ would be a part of His plan of salvation, the body of Christ. If this were not so then God would not have issued the call to “come unto me”, or to “seek me”. If it is true that we are chosen individually for salvation, then Calvinists are correct in saying that God draws only the Elect to salvation and no one else. But the Bible declares that God will draw all men and has died for the sins of all men, not just the elect. John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Calvinists take the issue of election into the next scripture, as covered in the Five Points of Calvinism, to teach that the Elect have been predestined to salvation. Therefore, if God has predestined us, nothing can change our destiny. Ephesians 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” But as mentioned earlier, this is not the predestination of individuals, (which cannot be changed by man), but the predestination of Gods plan of salvation and the building of His Church (which can be changed by mans own choice). We have been made part of this predestination by accepting Gods gift of salvation through faith and becoming a part of His predestined salvation for the Church. This conclusion is evident by that many scriptures that warn us of falling away from faith in Christ and returning to sin, and therefore losing salvation. Most Calvinists today will agree that man has the choice to become a Christian before they are saved. But they deny that man has a choice after salvation, to return to sin and lose salvation. In their theology man loses his ability to choose after he becomes a Christian, when it comes to salvation. But God never changed mans ability to choose, and He never changes the wages of sin without Christ’s blood washing it away. If a man returns to sin, he also walks away from the blood, being made dirty once again through sin, and therefore suffers the wages of sin, which is death.

Calvinists will make such a great emphasis on the grace of God, but yet they themselves show a great lack of grace in their doctrine. The grace of God is, that He has made a way for all mankind to receive salvation (if they are willing), for we all have sinned just the same, having grace as our only hope. What grace is there in condemning a man because he did not happen to be one that God chose to be saved, or one who was completely unable to receive Him, such as an infant. If grace is defined as something given to us that we do not deserve, then what could possibly make us worthy of this grace while the rest of humanity goes to hell, with no chance at receiving it? But it is because of His grace that all men might have the opportunity to get saved, as God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). And why “go into all the world and preach the gospel” and “compel them to come in”, if they are all predestined to heaven or hell. If that is the case we can just leave it all up to God to draw in the elect, and all others don’t matter since they are going to hell any, which cannot be changed.

I have met with individuals who had backslid from Calvinist Churches and because they struggle to serve God they believe that they were not predestined for salvation. How could God love the whole world and yet predestine many to an eternal hell with no chance to be saved? How unjust would it be for God to draw one person to Himself and not another. This is not the gospel!

Grace is not that a person cannot lose their salvation, but grace is that all men can now be saved; for when “we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Grace is that God has given every single Christian something that we do not deserve, by providing a way of salvation. All we have to do is receive it, and abide in it. If we could not lose or forfeit salvation, then we would not need to continue in repentance to be forgiven and cleansed. It would be automatic, even for those things that pertain to rewards. For if good and bad works cannot affect salvation, neither can they affect rewards, because according to Calvinism man can do no good, he cannot choose salvation, and cannot change it. If we are so helpless in receiving salvation, then we must be equally helpless in receiving any rewards as well. But what wonderful grace there is available to us, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; that if we sin, all we have to do is repent, and He will forgive us. He is the one-time sacrifice for our sins, and for the world also. Not meaning that we don’t need to repent ever again, but that we have access to the throne of grace through Jesus, who is our mediator and the propitiation for our sins. He is present as our attorney before the great judge, by whom our case is won through the blood of Jesus, obtained through continual repentance as necessary. All this is dependant upon our willingness to repent. The grace of God is such an awesome thing for us, but Calvinists often misunderstand it.



1 John 2:1-2 “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Hebrews 4:16 “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”



Grace is, God willing to give us something that we do not deserve, which in this case is salvation.



Mercy is, God not giving us something that we do deserve, which in this case would be punishment.



It is when we go boldly before God’s throne in repentance that we are spared the wages of sin and can obtain mercy and grace. If we just assume that grace is automatic and that everything is okay, when in fact we are living in sin, then we deceive ourselves. God is surely a God of great grace, but He is also a holy God of righteous judgment. Although we are a sinful people who may always giving in to some sort of sin, we need to understand that God’s grace will always lead us to forgiveness, through repentance. Just as there is a sin that is not unto death (Eternal Punishment), there are also sins that do lead to death. Any sin that is not covered by the blood of Jesus through repentance must be judged and receive its wages, which is death. Otherwise the Bible falsely warns against such. A sin not unto death can only be “not unto death” because of the grace of God. These are sins that are done through ignorance, until they are revealed as sin. Rewards may be affected, but not salvation. But those sins that are “unto death” are not under grace, until there is repentance. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness, therefore there will be judgment.

Thanks unto to God that we have been given access to His throne, that we may obtain grace and mercy!

Election is obtained through grace. Grace is obtained through faith. Faith is only possible through spiritual hunger. Jesus draws all men! But only the hungry will respond, having faith to obtain grace, and therefore becoming one of God’s elect


by Lyndon Conn
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_Crusader
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Hi Again

Post by _Crusader » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:12 pm

Damon

I think we are beating a dead horse here...you just need to get over it and give it to the Lord...

Steve
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Hi Damon

Post by _Crusader » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:22 pm

I wasnt being curt in my last post..or am I upset.. sorry if it seemed that way ..I just think youve got enough info...you just need to act on it..and thats a choice of the will...Steve
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Post by _Rae » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:58 pm

Damon,

Does anyone on the discussion board know you personally?
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Post by _Damon » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:36 pm

No, Rae, I don't think anyone on this board knows me personally.

It would be nice, though. :wink:

Damon
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Yo

Post by _Crusader » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:26 pm

No I dont know Damon but I can identify with his struggles,,,Ive been upset with the Lord...I figure since He knows everything anyway I would just admit it to Him...I think its a part of walking with the Lord long time sooner or later youve got questions that need to be resolved. I remember as an early Christian God sent me to Salz Tannery in Santa Cruz to work,I know it was of Him becuase I turned them down twice and finally accpeted thier job offer the 3rd time. I think the Lord has a sense of humor because He put me on a machine called the flesher.I worked with the most violent man in the whole place on graveyard outside. Two of us together face to face operateing one machine cranking out 180 hides per hour.I remember after being there about a month that I was mad at God and on my break I sat down on the wet cowhides fresh from the beam house and asked God in my heart...Do you really want me to be here"? I didnt hear His voice audibly but it might as well have been, because I heard the most resounding quick authoritative ,YES, inside my spirit and I new it was His will at that time. I was so upset that I went out to my old V.W. bus at around 3A.M. reached down in the darkness for any Christian tape I could find and threw an 8 track in...to my amazement Larry Norman came on and his first words were.."YOU ARE A SERVANT AND YOUR WAITING FOR YOU CALL HOW CAN I USE YOU WHEN YOU HAVENT GIVEN ALL". At the exact sametime the Holy Spirit filled my car with His presence like I was back at Mission Street Christian Fellowship in an afterglow service and I listened. The things that I learned there were things I couldnt have learned anywhere else. I had a tape from Bob Mumford that pulled me through.I actually listened to it everyday for weeks. It was about Psalm 33 and he said it wasnt a Psalm for dieing but it was a Psalm for living...its been 31 years and I still have that tape in my archives of imprtant memorbila. In it he says some great things but one is this...He said the rarest thing in the Kingdom are people who know how to use the rod and the staff. He said you dont get them in Bible College but you get them in the valley. But Christians resist the valley longing for the mountain tops. The Rod is a symbol of authority...the authority of the beleiver and the staff a symbol of guidence.. because you learn to follow the Lord in and out of the very difficult areas. Learning these you can assist others. You only get the Rod and the staff in the valley. He said if you view most Chrisitans you can see the skid marks (oh how true of me I thought) and that we spend a lot of time rebuking the devil when God often leads us into valleys to teach us there. I learned many things from the Lord there and in His timing was removed.I can identify with Damon...yes I can ...

The Lord is faithful

this I know

Steve
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Post by _Rae » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:54 pm

Ok. The reason that I asked was because I guess I don't see how an anonymous person posting about an anonymous situation about a different anonymous person on a discussion board with other (mostly) anonymous people from around the world would be betraying your friend's confidence.

If nobody knows you, much less knows the person that you are referring to, then I would think it would not be a betrayal of trust in any way, shape or form to give a little bit more detail about the situation so that we can understand where you are coming from.

Of course it is your decision, but it might be beneficial to you and your friend as well as to the rest of us to know a little more detail (anonymously :) )
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Post by _Damon » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:07 pm

Rae wrote:Ok. The reason that I asked was because I guess I don't see how an anonymous person posting about an anonymous situation about a different anonymous person on a discussion board with other (mostly) anonymous people from around the world would be betraying your friend's confidence.
Heh. :D

Seriously, though, Crusader just got done posting about having had a job in Santa Cruz. I live in Carmel, which isn't far from there.

The world is smaller and less anonymous than you think. :wink:

Damon
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Hi

Post by _Crusader » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:19 pm

Yeah but I havent lived there in 15 years. I do believe it would help to know more so we could help you. Plus it would do you good to talk about it. Plus think of all the Christian people here and the wealth of love,widsom and counsel that are available..its a veritable goldmine.



Steve
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