Being Subject To Our Leaders

Post by **_Christopher** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:52 pm

Great point Rae.

A body grows when the cells sub-divide doesn't it?

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:42 pm

Christopher and Homer, you both affirm that there are no apostles in our day. Can you tell me how you know this?

And if you truly believe this, what do you do with Paul's words?

And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ... Ephesians 4:11-13

I'm sure you agree that "we all" (we disciples of Christ) have not yet attained to the unity of the faith and to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". But Paul said that God would give these gifts to equip the saints for the work of the ministry until this goal is achieved!

How do we deal with this? Or do we just ignore it, and continue in our supposition that there are no living apostles in our day?

Post by **_Christopher** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:16 am

Touche' Paidion,

Let me rephrase.

I don't know of any.

Post by **_Allyn** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:16 am

What is the modern day definition of an apostle?

Post by **_Rick_C** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:19 am

I'm not really following this thread but....

Allyn wrote:What is the modern day definition of an apostle?

Our English words:
"Apostle" comes from the Greek and means: "a sent one."
"Missionary" comes from Latin and means: "a sent one."

Have a good day,

Post by **_Sean** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:53 am

Allyn wrote:What is the modern day definition of an apostle?

I was going to ask the same thing. It does seem they should have signs:

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Does one have to be sent by direct revelation the risen Christ to be a "sent one"? It's interesting that in Acts they said:

Act 1:21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

I don't know anyone today that could meet those conditions. Sure, Paul was different, but Jesus picked Paul, and I'm not going to argue with Him about that.

I guess Jesus could still appoint people today, I just don't know how we know for sure. I wish I did.

Post by **_Michelle** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:15 am

Rick_C wrote:I'm not really following this thread but....

Allyn wrote:What is the modern day definition of an apostle?
Our English words:
"Apostle" comes from the Greek and means: "a sent one."
"Missionary" comes from Latin and means: "a sent one."

Have a good day,

Some Mormon missionaries keep coming to my door. Maybe next time I should ask them who my elders are?

Post by **__id_2574** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:10 am

Is it possible that there are (at least) two types of apostles found in the early church? One being the “most eminent” apostles (II Corinthians 11:5; 12:11) – which would refer to the twelve plus Paul? And the other being those sent out as ambassadors to the nations? This second type seems to be alluded to in Acts 14:4,14 (where Barnabas is included as an apostle while on their first missionary journey), and I Thessalonians 2:6 (where Silas and Timothy are both included by Paul as apostles in the context of their ministry in Thessalonica.)

Just a thought.

By His Grace,

Gregg

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:23 pm

I am pressed for time. Much more can be said regarding the subject of apostles, but for now I will leave these thoughts regarding the definition of "apostle":

From D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, 2nd Edition: "It is arguable that although apostelos is cognate with apostello, (I send), New Testament use of the noun does not center on the meaning of the one sent but on ''messenger". Now a messenger is usually sent; but the word messenger also calls to mind the message the person carries, and suggests he represents the one who sent him. In other words, the actual usage in the New Testament suggests that apostelos commonly bears the meaning a special representative or a special messenger rather than 'someone sent out'."

We should note the following:

John 13:16 (New King James Version)
16. Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent (apostolos) greater than he who sent him.

Here Jesus used apostolos as a proverbial saying.

2 Corinthians 8:23 (New King James Version)

23. If anyone inquires about Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker concerning you. Or if our brethren are inquired about, they are messengers (apostolos) of the churches, the glory of Christ.

Here Titus and others are called apostles.

Philippians 2:25 (New King James Version)

25. Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger (apostle) and the one who ministered to my need;

Here Paul is sending Epaphroditus and informs the Philippians Epaphroditis is their "apostle".

Luke 11:49 (New King James Version)
49. Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’

And here Jesus terms the messengers sent by God to ancient Israel as "apostles".

It seems easy to recognize that the word was used for a special office and also in other ways. There were Apostles and there were apostles.

Paidion, you are well read on the early church. Do you know of any 1st or 2nd century Christian(s) so bold as to claim to have been equal in staus to the twelve and Paul?

Post by **_Allyn** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:45 pm

Sean wrote:
Allyn wrote:What is the modern day definition of an apostle?
I was going to ask the same thing. It does seem they should have signs:

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Does one have to be sent by direct revelation the risen Christ to be a "sent one"? It's interesting that in Acts they said:

Act 1:21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

I don't know anyone today that could meet those conditions. Sure, Paul was different, but Jesus picked Paul, and I'm not going to argue with Him about that. I guess Jesus could still appoint people today, I just don't know how we know for sure. I wish I did.

I'm with you, Sean, and that is why I asked. I was taught in my Church of Christ upbringing that an apostle was one personally called by Christ having also seen Christ.