Uncaused choices?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:30 am

Ok, Steve, if man does not have a libertarian free will, do you agree that man therefore is a slave to his nature? Yes or No?

And, previously you have said,

Calvinism on the other hand teaches salvation has nothing to do at all with man , which carried to it's logical end means that man can not be held responsible for choices therefore justice would demand that he can not be punished if he is not responsible.

Do you now agree that Calvinism teaches man has a will, and therefore retract this previous statement.
Also, if man is not free, do you now affirm that responsibility does not imply ability?

Mark

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:44 am

Do you now agree that Calvinism teaches man has a will, and therefore retract this previous statement.
Also, if man is not free, do you now affirm that responsibility does not imply ability?

Yes Mark, man is indeed a slave to sin with no free will, yet he does have a will and he does make choices.
One of the choices man is capable of making is to respond to God but because man does not truly have free will, he does need the Holy Spirit to follow Jesus as Lord.
Therefore since man has a will he is ACCOUNTABLE to God yet because he has no free will, God is ultimately responsible because man was not created perfect but was created spiritually weak. Just look at Eve's impulses to the devil's temptations, she is most definetely not perfect.

Therefore God will not arbitrarily choose some for heaven and send the vast majority to eternal damnation because that would clearly be unjust and God is just.
So i agree with my friend Paidion that the vast majority of mankind will be purified and saved through the lake of fire over an undefined period of time.
Sorry that this does'nt fit Calvinism theology.

Post by **__id_1887** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:19 am

Steve7150 wrote:

So i agree with my friend Paidion that the vast majority of mankind will be purified and saved through the lake of fire over an undefined period of time.

Scriptural support please.

Haas

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:47 pm

Quote:
So i agree with my friend Paidion that the vast majority of mankind will be purified and saved through the lake of fire over an undefined period of time.

Scriptural support please.

You can check "Misc theological topics" and "Alternative views of hell" and views pro and con are there.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:11 pm

Steve, what does it mean to "have a will" but not a "free will"?

Give an instance of a person exercising his will "unfreely".

Post by **_TK** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:51 pm

Paidion-

the only example i can think of is perhaps someone like a prisoner (or a slave) who is so tired of being beaten and mistreated that he finally "decides" to behave, even though in his deepest person he is seething with rebellion. he willingly obeys, but not freely so. i think!

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:00 pm

Okay, TK. That's a pretty good example of someone who exercises his will "unfreely".

So by analogy, a person who is a slave to sin, might choose to obey it, but inwardly he is seething, wishing to obey God. Would that be the case?

It seems to be consistent with what Paul said in Romans 7. Without Christ, "I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." Also:

For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

It certainly seems to be the case that generally, one does not work righteousness without the enabling grace of Christ. That seems to be the sense that he is "a slave to sin" as our Lord taught. Yet particularly, that is, on some particular occasion, he does seem to have the ability to do it.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:11 am

It certainly seems to be the case that generally, one does not work righteousness without the enabling grace of Christ. That seems to be the sense that he is "a slave to sin" as our Lord taught. Yet particularly, that is, on some particular occasion, he does seem to have the ability to do it.

Paidion, I was just about to quote Rom 7 , thanks but this is what i meant by the difference between "free will" and "human will."
IMO the difference is important because if this is true then it is JUSTICE that God allows the sinner an opportunity to follow Christ free from the slavery of sin and free from Satan's influence. Adam had that opportunity but he did not have the experience of evil and it's consequences which we now have. "Knowing good and evil" is what Adam lacked and this is what mankind had to learn IMO.
Not that God owes us anything but i believe it's part of His plan of redemption for man.

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:35 am

So the vast majority will be saved?

Man, I give up.
I really came here in good faith that I was pretty much dealing with orthodox believers. It has taken a wee while for me to get a feel for some of the beliefs here, but I am hearing some of you loud and clear.

Thanks for the discussions, but I see little encouragement to continue with them, plus I have said a fair bit here already. I thank you all for the interactions, especially Sean, Derek and TK.

Blessings
Mark

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:19 pm

So the vast majority will be saved?

Man, I give up.
I really came here in good faith that I was pretty much dealing with orthodox believers. It has taken a wee while for me to get a feel for some of the beliefs here, but I am hearing some of you loud and clear.

I realize the thought that the vast majority may be saved must be troubling to you.
It's also troubling to Satan.