"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

Post by **__id_1679** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:30 am

Paidion,

Quoting your answer: " Is it not that God will not separate the godless and inflict upon them painful punishment for all eternity"?

No! God will seperate the ungodly from the godly! To do otherwise would be a gross misrepresentation of His justice. The "universalists" view as I've said is , very attractive. But it is contrary to so many scriptures on the subject. It is in my opinion mere "wishful thinking". It is a "different Gospel" and could be considered "heretical" to Orthodox view.
The execution of God's justice is almost always portrayed in the bible as "penal", not reformatory. Again I will ask, what did the Flood prove?

Universalisim empties the Cross of Christ of its fullest sense, of which our justification by faith in Christ's Atonement is weakened. I believe God is interested in reformation, reconcilliation and that all would come to repentance in Christ. That is what this life is all about. Indeed, God is long suffering. But there is nothing I know of in scripture that would prove His long suffering is extended to the dead who have no more share in this physical realm. NOW is the time of our salvation!

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:06 am

TK wrote:Homer wrote:

Actually, no news is necessary.

this succinctly states my main problem with universalism (that i have raised before)-- and in my mind this has never been adequately responded to. unfortunately, for me at least, the idea that the only "benefit" to accepting the good news we will have a better "this life" doesnt square with the gospel message.

TK and Homer,

This is one of the problems I have with the traditional view. It seems to place almost no significance on the impact that becoming a follower of Christ can have on "this life." All of the focus seems to be on the "after-life." But Christ said:

John 10:10
...I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Jesus and Paul spent the bulk of their teaching about how we are to live our lives in service to others - that it blesses others and ourselves (in this life).

Aren't there people in this world who suffer with health issues, poverty, oppression? If there were no followers of Christ would these people be ministered unto? God loves all and desires us to meet one another's needs. God needs disciples who will have compassion on the oppressed, love their neighbors, and make a positive difference in the lives of others. Spreading the Good News is vitally important to make disciples so that Christ's mission on this earth can continue. This is what it's all about!

Paul speaks very plainly in Romans 1 of the dire consequences in this life of disobedience, ultimately saying that these people deserve death (vs 32). This IMO is what Jesus was referring to in the parables that Homer quoted. He is saying that God's judgment can come at any time (as in Romans 1) and when it comes it will be devasting in the life of the disobedient. This is NOT talking about some post-life punishment, but the wrath of God in this life.

Todd

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:29 am

Traveler wrote:Universalisim empties the Cross of Christ of its fullest sense, of which our justification by faith in Christ's Atonement is weakened.

Bob,

I could disagree more! According to the traditional view, the Cross of Christ only ultimately saves a few. The Universalist view says that God's desire that all be saved is actually accomplished through Christ. It is the traditional view that "empties the Cross of Christ of its fullest sense."

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Following up on a comment that Danny made...

If we (Christians) are the firstfruits who are the latter fruits?

James 1:18
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures

Todd

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:35 am

Hello Brothers (and Sisters),

Todd wrote:

This is one of the problems I have with the traditional view. It seems to place almost no significance on the impact that becoming a follower of Christ can have on "this life." All of the focus seems to be on the "after-life."

I don't know where you got this idea! It is certainly not mine, and I'm wondering what "tradition" you reference? I believe we are to live "the Kingdom" life now, although we will not live it perfectly. Your comment brought to mind a hymn, and it is an old one:

"A Beautiful Life"

Each day I'll do a golden deed
By helping those who are in need
My life on earth is but a span
And so I'll do the best I can.

Chorus:
Life's evening sun is sinking low
A few more days and I must go
To meet the deeds that I have done
Where there will be no setting sun.

To be a child of God each day
My light must shine along the way
I'll sing His praise while the ages roll
And strive to help some troubled soul.

Chorus

The only life that will endure
Is one that's kind and good and pure
And for God, I'll take my stand
Each day I'll lend a helping hand.

Chorus

While going down life's weary road
I'll try to lift some traveller's load
I'll try to turn the night to day
Make flowers bloom along the way.

This hymn was once very popular and shows clearly that your impression is not correct.

Bob wrote:

I guess Jesus was just being a good Catholic?

You said it before I did. I wonder where those nasty Catholics got the idea? Jesus sure didn't hesitate to cause people to fear God.

The Universalist has, to my mind, a very strange idea, that is, that God will value a confession, based on faith, made in this life, as of no more worth than a confession made "by sight". A confession made when the truth can no longer be denied, a stating of the obvious. How will He regard them as any better than a "wicked and adulterous nation" seeking a sign before they would believe?

No one can confess except by the Holy Spirit now. When faced with
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats", I don't believe any prodding by the Holy Spirit will be necessary to induce an acknowledgement of who Jesus is.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:02 pm

Homer wrote:This hymn was once very popular and shows clearly that your impression is not correct.

Homer,

I disagree. I think my impression is absolutely correct. What is salvation to you? Is it not avoiding being cast into hell in the after-life? If so, then the focus of salvation is what happens to you in the after-life. It takes the focus away from where it needs to be which is meeting people's needs now. The message becomes, "Make this confession", or "Pray this prayer", or "Get Baptized", etc. so that you can be saved and not cast into hell after you die. I don't believe this what Christ intended for His message to be.

Ti 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Todd

Post by **_Rae** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:06 pm

A question for the Universalists (I realize you will probably all have different answers)...

Do you guys believe that those ruling and reigning with Christ once we die are those who followed him in this life? And that those we will be ruling and reigning over will be those who did not?

Like the popular praise song says, "One day every tongue will confess you are God. One day every knee will bow. But still the greatest treasure remains for those who gladly choose You now."

I always wonder what people are doing singing this song who very clearly do not believe in Universalism.

Anyway, I ask these questions because it would seem to be sort of a way of reconciling the necessity of choosing Jesus now in this life, while also no one being eternally consciously tormented (or I guess annihilated either).

Post by **_Rae** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:10 pm

Homer said:

The Universalist has, to my mind, a very strange idea, that is, that God will value a confession, based on faith, made in this life, as of no more worth than a confession made "by sight". A confession made when the truth can no longer be denied, a stating of the obvious. How will He regard them as any better than a "wicked and adulterous nation" seeking a sign before they would believe?"

Didn't Thomas seek a sign before he believed? And he wasn't chastised for it. Didn't all of the apostles make a confession based on sight? Jesus just said that people were blessed who did not see and believed, He didn't say anything about it being a horrific thing to need to see in order to believe.

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:50 pm

Todd wrote:

What is salvation to you? Is it not avoiding being cast into hell in the after-life? If so, then the focus of salvation is what happens to you in the after-life.

I thought I was clear:

I don't know where you got this idea! It is certainly not mine

I do not know how to be any clearer on my view. (I don't know how our Tartanarmy friend made those giant bold letters

)

And Rae wrote:

Didn't Thomas seek a sign before he believed? And he wasn't chastised for it.

Seems Jesus' reply to Thomas was a bit of a put-down. And he is "doubting Thomas" to this day. Doubt is not a commendable quality. "....for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

And:

Didn't all of the apostles make a confession based on sight?

Seems that was their only option.

Good to hear from a sister on this subject!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:42 pm

Didn't all of the apostles make a confession based on sight?

Seems that was their only option.

Good to hear from a sister on this subject

As it is also many other people's only option subsequent to Jesus's life.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:09 pm

.."I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body,
and after that have no more that they can do. But I will WARN YOU WHOM TO FEAR, FEAR THE ONE WHO AFTER HAS KILLED HAS AUTHORITY TO CAST INTO HELL; YES I TELL YOU FEAR HIM"..

I guess Jesus was just being a good Catholic?
Perhaps if Jesus actually used the word hell but he did'nt because he said "gehenna." Gehenna is an OT word and never did the jews associate gehenna with eternal anything.
Now Traveler it would be nice if bible translators would let the reader figure it out instead of telling us what to believe, because Jesus never did use the word hell and neither did his apostles.