Ditto, though one could quibble over whether Jesus was the founder of the new covenant or the Father was. But, otherwise a hearty amen. I'm really struggling to see whether commonsense is coming from a particular denominational perspective or whether his is a personal doctrine, but it would be helpful to wrap my head around his perspective and address it more effectively if I knew what tradition informed it (if any).dwight92070 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:38 pmcommonsense wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm
Steven, I believe that what the writers of the New Testament are saying is that Jesus is not the founder of the new covenant ( "My words are not My own."), but a teacher or messenger of the eternal covenant of God that was known from the beginning.
Dwight - You are mistaken again. If the New Covenant was the same as the covenant that God gave to Abraham, then it wouldn't be called a New Covenant. Jesus said, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." If Jesus had not shed His blood, there would be no new covenant. True, Abraham was saved by faith, as we are, but the new covenant was not instituted in his day.
The new covenant was the same everlasting covenant given to Abraham. (This is INCORRECT) And although Abraham was not the founder, he is considered the Father of it. (Also INCORRECT)
Dwight - Abraham was not the Father of any covenant. The Bible says that he was "the father of all who believe without being circumcised, ... and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised." Romans 4:11-12
Jesus is God
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
Re: Jesus is God
The above verses seem so decisive to me! They specifically set Jesus apart as separate from God (not just apart from the Father, but from God).darinhouston wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:43 am1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (and so on throughout the Bible)
On the other hand, the verses used to prove Jesus is God seem indecisive and/or able to be interpreted in a way that does not make Jesus God ("I am in the Father and the Father is in me," "the word became flesh," etc).
I simply can't be honest with myself and continue to believe that Jesus is God. Our savior? Yes definitely, but not God.
Re: Jesus is God
Hi Seeker,
You wrote:
Colossians 1:15-16
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Genesis 1:1-2
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
You wrote:
What is indecisive about Paul's statement here in Colossians and how would you interpret it, in light of Genesis 1:1?On the other hand, the verses used to prove Jesus is God seem indecisive and/or able to be interpreted in a way that does not make Jesus God ("I am in the Father and the Father is in me," "the word became flesh," etc).
Colossians 1:15-16
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Genesis 1:1-2
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
If interested, this passage was discussed in some detail in this post.Homer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:32 pmHi Seeker,
You wrote:
What is indecisive about Paul's statement here in Colossians and how would you interpret it, in light of Genesis 1:1?On the other hand, the verses used to prove Jesus is God seem indecisive and/or able to be interpreted in a way that does not make Jesus God ("I am in the Father and the Father is in me," "the word became flesh," etc).
Colossians 1:15-16
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Genesis 1:1-2
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
https://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6231
Re: Jesus is God
If Jesus is God, then either He could not die, or else He raised Himself from the dead (that is, His "spirit" raised his "body" from the dead).
But every scripture that deals with the matter indicates that God (undoubtedly the Father) raised Jesus from the dead:
Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Ac 13:34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "’I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
1Pe 1:20,21 He (Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
But every scripture that deals with the matter indicates that God (undoubtedly the Father) raised Jesus from the dead:
Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Ac 13:34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "’I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
1Pe 1:20,21 He (Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
Paidion wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:17 pmIf Jesus is God, then either He could not die, or else He raised Himself from the dead (that is, His "spirit" raised his "body" from the dead).
Dwight - Assuming that you understand what God or Christ or the Holy Spirit, can or cannot do. Christ is called "God's mystery" in Colossians 2:2-3, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
In Matthew 6:24, Jesus says, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." My margin says the word "wealth" or "mammon" is personified as an object of worship. So we could say that you cannot worship one and, at the same time, another.
So how is it that non-Trinitarians would have us worship God and another who is not God - Jesus? Jesus said "No one can serve (or worship) two masters."
So how is it that non-Trinitarians would have us worship God and another who is not God - Jesus? Jesus said "No one can serve (or worship) two masters."
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
That is not a universal rule, it is a general truth. More importantly, if the ultimate master has delegated his authority to another and he is ruling/serving within that sphere of delgation perfectly aligned with the ultimate master, I am still serving the one by serving the other. We see this in all areas of our lives.dwight92070 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:54 amIn Matthew 6:24, Jesus says, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." My margin says the word "wealth" or "mammon" is personified as an object of worship. So we could say that you cannot worship one and, at the same time, another.
So how is it that non-Trinitarians would have us worship God and another who is not God - Jesus? Jesus said "No one can serve (or worship) two masters."
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
So wouldn't it be true then, to say, according to your reasoning, that you are worshipping God, by worshipping someone who is not God?
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
That might be fair to say, but I don't know if I necessarily would say I "worship" Jesus, though I can't say where adoration ends and worship/follow begins (though I don't have a problem with putting it that way and don't see why I couldn't "worship" him if God says to) -- Is bowing down in subjection and submission and adoration worship? If so, I do, but usually looking at him and through him to the Father. I definitely follow him and serve him as my lord and master. By doing so, I am worshipping his Father just as everything he did was to give his father glory and honor. Though in some ways, even my service and submission to my boss at work is a form of worship of the Father.dwight92070 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:23 pmSo wouldn't it be true then, to say, according to your reasoning, that you are worshipping God, by worshipping someone who is not God?