So we are free to speculate. We might as well say Origen was correct when he said our resurrected bodies would be in the shape of spheres, among his other speculations. Nothing in the scriptures against it. What the universalist ought to able to show, from the scriptures, is that:
1. Wicked men will be made holy post mortem.
2. How this will it occur.
3. When it will occur.
4. On what basis will they be saved.
If their cause is scriptural, they ought to have a positive case for it, something other than negative attacks and philosophical speculation.
Sure we are free to speculate or not. Didn't Isaiah say "come let us reason together"? The Christian Universalist does have many verses that suggest universal reconciliation.
"As in Adam all die even so in Christ all shall be made alive", If this were the only verse that would be one thing but there are many verses that suggest ultimate restoration of all things as you are aware. Without adding any words to these verses (speaking of speculation) they actually sound pretty clear plus it is God's will that everyone s/b saved and come into a knowledge of the truth. It is the knowledge of the truth that Jesus said would set us free.
1. Wicked men die wicked therefore for all to be saved the only option left is to become saved post mortem.
2. By accepting Christ as Lord and Savior
3. Possibly in the lake of fire
4. By accepting Christ as Lord and Savior (Every knee will bow and every tongue confess)
Will these wicked get off scott free? Not likely as God has shown himself to be a God of justice and i think we can trust that whatever justice entails it will be implemented. Jesus certainly warned about judgment but i think by combining what he said with what Paul and others said we see a combination of judgment tempered with ultimate mercy.
Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
Steve7150,
And the scriptures that positively prove your assertions are?
And the scriptures that positively prove your assertions are?
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jriccitelli
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
While we are waiting for Steve to look up those verses for us, I wanted to point out something that may be being overlooked by Universalists;
Humans are the most wicked vile things in the Universe, except for some Angels.
Name one other species that has sinned so greatly and caused so much pain upon itself?
Point out 'one' other species, besides Angels, that is capable of such evil and hate and disrespect for God and others. Humans have even been known to torture 'other' species of animals, though generally they rape and torture their own. Mind you the Human supposed to 'know better' because they are smarter and have the advantage of a bigger brain.
Why is Man this way, and so vile and prone to sin?
It is because we were also given a will, and 'supposedly' intelligence to manage it.
God never was willy-nilly about this gift of life and a freewill, God does hold man responsible. And with responsibility comes consequences.
What on earth makes Universalists think man is 'so' wonderful? God does not seem to think so.
To me the Universalist has a flowery lovely hope for man, but I do not see this coming from God. God is never lovey-dovey about man, sure God loves creation and to some extent man - but all this is within the context of Justice, Judgment , sacrifices, penalties and the Cross. These things are not flowery (I rarely see flowers in a courtroom).
Without getting into how the Universalist cannot 'reconcile' Gods wrath with his love, and all the hundreds of chapters that speak about sinners and Gods wrath. I wanted to address this point of mans glorification of his species.
There are so many verses that remind us that man ought 'not' to think too highly of himself, and just the same not to highly of his species.
Men are but beasts, fit for destruction, vessels of wrath, objects of scorn, like pottery, they are like branches to be burned, like weeds to be pulled up, like smoke, like cows, and like fish;
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria,
Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy,
Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!"
2 The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness,
"Behold, the days are coming upon you
When they will take you away with meat hooks,
And the last of you with fish hooks. (Amos 4:1-2)
I have seen a wicked, violent man spreading himself like a luxuriant tree in its native soil. Then he passed away, and lo, he was no more; I sought for him, but he could not be found. (Psalm 37:35-36)
For when he dies he will carry nothing away;
His glory will not descend after him.
18 Though while he lives he congratulates himself--
And though men praise you when you do well for yourself--
19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish. (Psalm 49:17-20)
Without quoting verses, I think the creation around us speaks volumes about God, and mans place in the food chain.
I always remind the kids that God made the Tyrannosaurus and Allosaurus, the God who loves you also made the Lion, the Grizzly bear, crocodiles, the Great white Shark with thousands of razor like teeth, the stinging jelly fish. The scorpion, the wolf, etc. etc.
The same God who made the bunny rabbit and the chicken made Tyrannosaurus, think about it.
You have to consider what kind of God we are dealing with here, a God with teeth and a backbone.
Animal life is a pretty tough existence to say the least, I think God expects us to observe, take notice and be forewarned! 'You ain't that special', animals grow up and die, animals eat and devour each other, it's the cycle of life. Are we going to 'forever' be upset and whine with God over every bite an animal takes or are we going to 'consider it', and repent and believe the Good News - otherwise we too shall all perish, and under the eyes of 'the same' God as the animals have.
Maybe we should also consider that all their suffering is as a result of Adams first sin, maybe the animals should sit in the jury box when we bring our case to court, but that wouldn't be right because animals are the victims of mans sin and the curse. They should be in the victim's corner. I wouldn't be surprised if God said forget man entirely I'm sick of man and freewill and sin, and only dogs spend eternity with God.
Humans are the most wicked vile things in the Universe, except for some Angels.
Name one other species that has sinned so greatly and caused so much pain upon itself?
Point out 'one' other species, besides Angels, that is capable of such evil and hate and disrespect for God and others. Humans have even been known to torture 'other' species of animals, though generally they rape and torture their own. Mind you the Human supposed to 'know better' because they are smarter and have the advantage of a bigger brain.
Why is Man this way, and so vile and prone to sin?
It is because we were also given a will, and 'supposedly' intelligence to manage it.
God never was willy-nilly about this gift of life and a freewill, God does hold man responsible. And with responsibility comes consequences.
What on earth makes Universalists think man is 'so' wonderful? God does not seem to think so.
To me the Universalist has a flowery lovely hope for man, but I do not see this coming from God. God is never lovey-dovey about man, sure God loves creation and to some extent man - but all this is within the context of Justice, Judgment , sacrifices, penalties and the Cross. These things are not flowery (I rarely see flowers in a courtroom).
Without getting into how the Universalist cannot 'reconcile' Gods wrath with his love, and all the hundreds of chapters that speak about sinners and Gods wrath. I wanted to address this point of mans glorification of his species.
There are so many verses that remind us that man ought 'not' to think too highly of himself, and just the same not to highly of his species.
Men are but beasts, fit for destruction, vessels of wrath, objects of scorn, like pottery, they are like branches to be burned, like weeds to be pulled up, like smoke, like cows, and like fish;
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria,
Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy,
Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!"
2 The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness,
"Behold, the days are coming upon you
When they will take you away with meat hooks,
And the last of you with fish hooks. (Amos 4:1-2)
I have seen a wicked, violent man spreading himself like a luxuriant tree in its native soil. Then he passed away, and lo, he was no more; I sought for him, but he could not be found. (Psalm 37:35-36)
For when he dies he will carry nothing away;
His glory will not descend after him.
18 Though while he lives he congratulates himself--
And though men praise you when you do well for yourself--
19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish. (Psalm 49:17-20)
Without quoting verses, I think the creation around us speaks volumes about God, and mans place in the food chain.
I always remind the kids that God made the Tyrannosaurus and Allosaurus, the God who loves you also made the Lion, the Grizzly bear, crocodiles, the Great white Shark with thousands of razor like teeth, the stinging jelly fish. The scorpion, the wolf, etc. etc.
The same God who made the bunny rabbit and the chicken made Tyrannosaurus, think about it.
You have to consider what kind of God we are dealing with here, a God with teeth and a backbone.
Animal life is a pretty tough existence to say the least, I think God expects us to observe, take notice and be forewarned! 'You ain't that special', animals grow up and die, animals eat and devour each other, it's the cycle of life. Are we going to 'forever' be upset and whine with God over every bite an animal takes or are we going to 'consider it', and repent and believe the Good News - otherwise we too shall all perish, and under the eyes of 'the same' God as the animals have.
Maybe we should also consider that all their suffering is as a result of Adams first sin, maybe the animals should sit in the jury box when we bring our case to court, but that wouldn't be right because animals are the victims of mans sin and the curse. They should be in the victim's corner. I wouldn't be surprised if God said forget man entirely I'm sick of man and freewill and sin, and only dogs spend eternity with God.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
Many of us are familiar with this verse, it is not speaking of the Devil, correct, it is speaking of a man, and it also seems to be speaking of this mans posterity. (And i think it speaks to 'all' evil men in general)
Notice others will be there in Sheol proceeding him, even the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth, kings of the nations etc;
And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved,4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say ...
8 "Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
'Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.'
9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 "They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.'
12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 "But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
18 "All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse.
20 "You will not be united with them in burial,
Because you have ruined your country,
You have slain your people.
May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
21 "Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter
Because of the iniquity of their fathers.
They must not arise and take possession of the earth
And fill the face of the world with cities."
22 "I will rise up against them," declares the LORD of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity," declares the LORD.23 "I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD of hosts.24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.26 This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.27 For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (Isaiah 14)
Who's going to frustrate and turn back Gods plan? Answer, I guess; Universalists.
Notice others will be there in Sheol proceeding him, even the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth, kings of the nations etc;
And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved,4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say ...
8 "Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
'Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.'
9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 "They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.'
12 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 "But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
18 "All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse.
20 "You will not be united with them in burial,
Because you have ruined your country,
You have slain your people.
May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
21 "Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter
Because of the iniquity of their fathers.
They must not arise and take possession of the earth
And fill the face of the world with cities."
22 "I will rise up against them," declares the LORD of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity," declares the LORD.23 "I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD of hosts.24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.26 This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.27 For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (Isaiah 14)
Who's going to frustrate and turn back Gods plan? Answer, I guess; Universalists.
Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
Humans are the most wicked vile things in the Universe, except for some Angels.
True but we also have people capable of great love like Mother Theresa , but it's not really about us it's about what God wants. Will God get what he wants in the end?
True but we also have people capable of great love like Mother Theresa , but it's not really about us it's about what God wants. Will God get what he wants in the end?
Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
And the scriptures that positively prove your assertions are?
User avatar
Homer
As you know Homer from past threads there are many verses the CU will claim, but instead of listing dozens let's start with one.
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2.11 - 12
Paul is referencing from similar verses in Isaiah 45 which applied to Yahweh, that the whole world would confess Yahweh as God. However he expands the group making this confession to "in heaven and on earth and under the earth." So i take this as answering your post- mortem objection. Under the earth means the dead will bow and confess.
Additionally the descriptions Paul uses envisage a salvation event rather then a forced submission. Paul always speaks of confessing Jesus as Lord in the context of salvation as there are no examples of Paul using this confession in any other way. The greek word for confess is "exomologeomai" and it is a voluntary type of confession and possibly even praise.
User avatar
Homer
As you know Homer from past threads there are many verses the CU will claim, but instead of listing dozens let's start with one.
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2.11 - 12
Paul is referencing from similar verses in Isaiah 45 which applied to Yahweh, that the whole world would confess Yahweh as God. However he expands the group making this confession to "in heaven and on earth and under the earth." So i take this as answering your post- mortem objection. Under the earth means the dead will bow and confess.
Additionally the descriptions Paul uses envisage a salvation event rather then a forced submission. Paul always speaks of confessing Jesus as Lord in the context of salvation as there are no examples of Paul using this confession in any other way. The greek word for confess is "exomologeomai" and it is a voluntary type of confession and possibly even praise.
Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
Yes, but please listen to Steve`s lecture on Gen 43-47. The passage has the same effect on me as on him, so when Steve spoke the way he did, it cracked me up all the more. This is Steve`s hopeful inclusivism at work". Yes, Matt is right. Dogmatic Universalism is not justified, but...Humans are the most wicked vile things in the Universe, except for some Angels.
God bless you Steve.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
I did not note anything particular about the topic in the Genesis 43-47 lecture, are you sure it was 43-47?
Now I am curious.
Now I am curious.
Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
I think just this:
in your post there was quite a Calvinistic "men are totally depraved" flavour. And yet here in this story we have ten men who had done something diabolical (sold their brother into slavery) but who had enough humanity to have felt terrible about it. And were utterly repentant in the end. Because of that there was something in them that was (to quote Steve) almost "forgivable". He used that word, not me! I submit that most of humanity would react the same way. Most people don`t have a seared conscience (even though it may seem so on the outside). Most people are not Stalins shaking their fist at God as they draw their last breath.
Just my opinion. You are free to disagree. But having been off the path for most of my adult life, I understand the other side a bit.
in your post there was quite a Calvinistic "men are totally depraved" flavour. And yet here in this story we have ten men who had done something diabolical (sold their brother into slavery) but who had enough humanity to have felt terrible about it. And were utterly repentant in the end. Because of that there was something in them that was (to quote Steve) almost "forgivable". He used that word, not me! I submit that most of humanity would react the same way. Most people don`t have a seared conscience (even though it may seem so on the outside). Most people are not Stalins shaking their fist at God as they draw their last breath.
Just my opinion. You are free to disagree. But having been off the path for most of my adult life, I understand the other side a bit.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
I never said men are 'not' capable of good.
Sorry you are reading me wrong, I am very opposed to Calvinism. You missed the part where I said;
"It is because we were also given a will, and 'supposedly' intelligence to manage it.
God never was willy-nilly about this gift of life and freewill, God does hold man responsible. And with responsibility comes consequences"
(Calvinists would hold 'God' responsible for sin)
I disagree 'strongly' (understated) with Calvinists 'total depravity doctrine, I argue with them because man 'can' do good, and I would argue that 'most' men live honestly and do the right thing 'most' of the time.
But 'most of the time' does not excuse man.
Liberals tend to gloss over mans short comings as rather negligible, and sum up man as being 'good' and generally not bad, just not quite perfect.
Judging from history, culture, and experience I do not know what Liberals are basing this on, it certainly is not in the Bible. If I left my wallet on a bus stop I bet nine to one it won't be returned to me. 'I' am a sinner, I don’t know who isn't (maybe some liberals).
My statement was that we are worse than animals, if animals don't all deserve eternal life what makes man think we (all, or any) are entitled to eternal LIFE?
Mother Theresa? I never said men (or women) could 'not' do good.
"It's not really about us it's about what God wants?" I think it is about what God has said; "in the day that you eat of it you will die"
If a person sat down and read the Bible from beginning to end, I would 'hope' they would 'repent' not conclude everyone is going to receive eternal life.
Seems to me the Bible portrays man sinning, then killing his brother, 'all' flesh then corrupted their way upon the earth, making a golden calf, sinning, sinning, idolatry, sinning, judgment, captivity, I think the objective of all this is to convince men they are sinners in need of repentance, and then God will accept them (perhaps).
Sorry you are reading me wrong, I am very opposed to Calvinism. You missed the part where I said;
"It is because we were also given a will, and 'supposedly' intelligence to manage it.
God never was willy-nilly about this gift of life and freewill, God does hold man responsible. And with responsibility comes consequences"
(Calvinists would hold 'God' responsible for sin)
I disagree 'strongly' (understated) with Calvinists 'total depravity doctrine, I argue with them because man 'can' do good, and I would argue that 'most' men live honestly and do the right thing 'most' of the time.
But 'most of the time' does not excuse man.
Liberals tend to gloss over mans short comings as rather negligible, and sum up man as being 'good' and generally not bad, just not quite perfect.
Judging from history, culture, and experience I do not know what Liberals are basing this on, it certainly is not in the Bible. If I left my wallet on a bus stop I bet nine to one it won't be returned to me. 'I' am a sinner, I don’t know who isn't (maybe some liberals).
My statement was that we are worse than animals, if animals don't all deserve eternal life what makes man think we (all, or any) are entitled to eternal LIFE?
Mother Theresa? I never said men (or women) could 'not' do good.
"It's not really about us it's about what God wants?" I think it is about what God has said; "in the day that you eat of it you will die"
If a person sat down and read the Bible from beginning to end, I would 'hope' they would 'repent' not conclude everyone is going to receive eternal life.
Seems to me the Bible portrays man sinning, then killing his brother, 'all' flesh then corrupted their way upon the earth, making a golden calf, sinning, sinning, idolatry, sinning, judgment, captivity, I think the objective of all this is to convince men they are sinners in need of repentance, and then God will accept them (perhaps).