Moyers: Hagee, CUFI, and an interview

[Guest]

Lazarus, I heard on CBC radio an interview with an Arab and a Jew. I didn't catch their names. The Arab promoted the single-state democracy with representatives in parliament from Israelites as well as non-Israelites in the region..

. If both parties could agree on democracy itself, the single-state democracy would appear to be the best solution.

[Guest]

A true, single-state democracy would be the ultimate solution, but a lot of hearts will have to change first. The attitude among so many Israelis is that is that if you are not a Jew, you are a second-class citizen. Currently, Israel is essentially an apartheid state.

I was listening to Michael Medved's syndicated radio program a few weeks ago when he said something that nearly caused me to drive off the road. He is a hardline supporter of Israel. He said the solution to the Palestinian problem is for all the Palestinians to leave and go somewhere else! I think that approach is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing". This is the kind of attitude that would make a fair single-state democracy so difficult.

Here are some websites I'm aware of in terms of Christian Zionism and a non-dispensationalist approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and also some excellent books. Does anyone have other resources they can recommend?

Open Doors Fellowship (Brother Andrew): http://www.opendoorsusa.org/
Friends of Sabeel: http://www.fosna.org/
Middle East Fellowship: http://www.middleeastfellowship.org/node
Stephen Sizer Ministries: http://www.sizers.org/

Books:
Whose Promised Land; Colin Chapman
Whose Holy City; Colin Chapman
Christian Zionism; Stephen Sizer
On the Road to Armageddon; Timothy Weber
Light Force; Brother Andrew

[Guest]

I was listening to Michael Medved's syndicated radio program a few weeks ago when he said something that nearly caused me to drive off the road. He is a hardline supporter of Israel. He said the solution to the Palestinian problem is for all the Palestinians to leave and go somewhere else! I think that approach is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing". This is the kind of attitude that would make a fair single-state democracy so difficult.

There seems to be a wide variety of attitudes, Mort, evidenced in both Israelis and Arabs. I recall in 1966 or 67, at the University of Manitoba, there was a presentation by Arabian Palestinians on the matter of the state of Israel. I remember it as an emotional presentation and strongly anti-Jewish. Many Jewish people attended and asked some pretty searching questions ----- which were not very effectively answered.

The following week, there was a presentation by Jewish people. It was carefully reasoned, justifying the existence of Israel. I recall one speaker saying, "There is no such animal as a 'Palestinian'. There are Arabian Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians. Both live in Palestine."

To my knowledge, not a single Arabian person attended the presentation.

[Guest]

Yes, I should have added to my statement that there is a corresponding hardness of heart among many Palestinians (Arabs). Colin Chapman points out that before any real progress can be made, both parties need to admit that they have committed terrible injustices.

It seems to me that what the Palestinians really need is a Gandhi-like figure who can lead them onto a path of non-violent resistance.

[Guest]

The attitude among so many Israelis is that is that if you are not a Jew, you are a second-class citizen. Currently, Israel is essentially an apartheid state.


An incredible statement considering the fact Arabs can vote in Israel, they can be citizens they go to school, they can earn a living.
How do jews fare in muslim countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran or Egypt or Syria or Lybia or Iraq.
In these countries they would'nt be second class citizens they would be dead citizens.
BTW Palestinians were arabs from Transjorden until Arafat coined the term in the 60s.

[Guest]

The attitude among so many Israelis is that is that if you are not a Jew, you are a second-class citizen. Currently, Israel is essentially an apartheid state.


An incredible statement considering the fact Arabs can vote in Israel, they can be citizens they go to school, they can earn a living.
How do jews fare in muslim countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran or Egypt or Syria or Lybia or Iraq.
In these countries they would'nt be second class citizens they would be dead citizens.
BTW Palestinians were arabs from Transjorden until Arafat coined the term in the 60s.

Actually...

The largest population of Jews in any Muslim nation is in Iran. Unless something has recently changed, they are protected.

The Jews who came from foreign lands and drove indigenous people out to make room for themselves in what is now called "Israel" are the ones who are really disliked.

...It is not a sight you would expect in a revolutionary Islamic state, but there are synagogues dotted all over Iran where Jews discreetly practise their religion.

"Because of our long history here we are tolerated," says Jewish community leader Unees Hammami, who organised the prayers.

He says the father of Iran's revolution, Imam Khomeini, recognised Jews as a religious minority that should be protected.

As a result Jews have one representative in the Iranian parliament.

"Imam Khomeini made a distinction between Jews and Zionists and he supported us," says Mr Hammami...


...Despite the offence Mahmoud Ahmedinejad has caused to Jews around the world, his office recently donated money for Tehran's Jewish hospital.

It is one of only four Jewish charity hospitals worldwide and is funded with money from the Jewish diaspora - something remarkable in Iran where even local aid organisations have difficulty receiving funds from abroad for fear of being accused of being foreign agents.

Most of the patients and staff are Muslim these days, but director Ciamak Morsathegh is Jewish.

"Anti-Semitism is not an eastern phenomenon, it's not an Islamic or Iranian phenomenon - anti-Semitism is a European phenomenon," he says, arguing that Jews in Iran even in their worst days never suffered as much as they did in Europe...


..."Whatever they say abroad is lies - we are comfortable in Iran - if you're not political and don't bother them then they won't bother you,"...

*Excerpts quoted from an interesting article, "Iran's proud but discreet Jews" by Frances Harrison, BBC News, Tehran.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

A true, single-state democracy would be the ultimate solution, but a lot of hearts will have to change first. The attitude among so many Israelis is that is that if you are not a Jew, you are a second-class citizen. Currently, Israel is essentially an apartheid state...

Yaacov Perrin is a Jewish rabbi whose most famous quote is probably, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." That is what Rabbi Perin said in his eulogy at the funeral of New York doctor Baruch Goldstein who used an assault rifle to kill 29 men, women and children while they were worshiping at a mosque (quote first reported Feb. 28, 1994 by Clyde Haberman in the New York Times).

Though it may not be the norm, that attitude does exist in Israel.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Guest]

If anyone else has an old computer like mine & can't watch videos; here's a link for Bill Moyers Journal podasts (audio):
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/podcasts/index.html

Danny,

Thanks for those links.

Anyone,

Would you be interested in discussing specific topics from Moyers?
(I mean comment on what was in the broadcast itself).
I'd prefer not to have to start a new thread.
Gtg while dialup loads last week's for a fresh listen............Rick

[Guest]

An incredible statement considering the fact Arabs can vote in Israel, they can be citizens they go to school, they can earn a living.

In theory, this is true. In reality, it is far from true.

Here's just one recent example, a report from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Integrated Regional Information Networks (IRIN). The report is entitled "Israeli settlements in Hebron make life nearly impossible, Palestinians say"

HEBRON, 9 September 2007 (IRIN) - Israeli policy in Hebron city centre has led thousands of Palestinians to leave their homes and some 1,829 businesses have been shut down since 1994, a report by the Israeli human rights organisations B'Tselem and the Association for Civil Rights has charged.

Entitled Ghost Town, reflecting the two groups' opinion of what has befallen the once vibrant centre of Hebron, the report surveys Palestinian life in the divided city.

"Israel's policy severely impacts thousands of Palestinians by violating the right to life, liberty, personal safety, freedom of movement, health, and property, among other rights," said the report.

"The limitations on movement and commerce in the city of Hebron are the 'necessary minimum' needed to provide protection to Israeli Defence Force soldiers and residents of the Jewish community in Hebron," the Israeli military said in response to Ghost Town.

According to an agreement reached in 1997 between the Palestine Liberation Organisation and Israel, Hebron was divided into two sections. H1, about 80 percent of the city, fell under the control of the Palestinian Authority, while Israel maintained control over H2, which contained significant parts of the commercial centre as well as the Israeli settlements, considered illegal under international law.

Ghost Town cited one Palestinian woman as saying that violence and a feeling of isolation, as well as restrictions on movement, had forced her family, reluctantly, to leave for H1.

"We were frightened and felt we were in a dangerous situation. It was impossible for us to continue living in [our] apartment," Na'imah Ahmad said, adding that most of her neighbours had done the same.

OCHA report

The economy in H2, where 35,000 Palestinians and only 800 Israeli settlers live, is almost totally destroyed. A new report by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), released on 30 August, said that eight out of 10 Palestinian adults in the old city of H2 are unemployed and an estimated 75 percent live below the poverty line.

The average monthly income per household in the area is about US$160 while the average for the West Bank is $405, the OCHA report, entitled The Humanitarian Impact of Israeli Infrastructure in the West Bank, said, quoting Palestinian Authority statistics.

The International Committee of the Red Cross distributes basic food parcels to some 1,750 families in H2, to help ease the dire situation.

Restrictions on Palestinians

Hebron is unique, with the exception of East Jerusalem which Israel illegally annexed in 1967, in that the settlements there are located in the heart of a Palestinian city (OCHA's report refers to "the insertion of settlers into the heart of a densely populated Palestinian city").

The security of 800 settlers has led the Israeli military to impose harsh restrictions on the 35,000 Palestinians living in H2. An additional 115,000 Palestinian live in H1, making Hebron the second largest city in the West Bank and arguably the most volatile.

Many of the harshest restrictions began after an Israeli settler murdered 29 Palestinian worshippers in 1994. The Israeli military reacted by limiting Palestinian movement in H2. These restrictions were intensified after the start of the Palestinian uprising, or intifada, in September 2000. Militant Palestinian groups targeted Israeli soldiers and settlers in the city.

In large sections of H2 Palestinians are forbidden to drive cars. In other areas they cannot open shops. In some cases, like Shuhada Street, a main thoroughfare, and on nearby roads, Palestinian movement of any kind is essentially forbidden and the street's closed shop fronts are all that are left of a once vibrant area.

The restrictions on movement have a direct impact on health. Palestinians say the movement of ambulances must be coordinated in advance, which is not possible in emergency situations.

"At 2am my wife, who was pregnant, started to bleed a lot. We had to go by foot to the 'Aliyah government hospital, about half a kilometre away," Taysir Aby 'Ayeshe said. She lost the baby.

Violence

"The settler violence here is constant," said Hashem al-Azzeh, a registered Palestinian refugee, who lives in H2. He and his family have been repeatedly attacked, he said.

According to Ghost Town, Israeli soldiers and police seldom intervene to stop violence against Palestinians, and violent settlers are rarely brought to justice.

The military has set up posts inside about 20 Palestinian buildings, sometimes taking over the entire residence. Their camouflage netting is visible on top of many homes.

Furthermore, Israeli security officers are also occasionally involved in violence against Palestinians.

"Last winter, a soldier on the roof broke out in hysterical laughter and threw sand and stones at me while I was standing outside the house," Bahija Sharabati told B'tselem in 2006. She also cited abuses by settlers.

"We have already filed dozens of complaints to the Israeli police, but nothing has changed," the mother of six said.

Other residents said settlers had shot at them.

The Abu 'Aisha family in H2, after repeated harassment by settlers, built a cage around their home. By living behind a tough metal web they at least do not have to worry about their windows being broken.

The Israeli police denied claims that it closes the majority of cases of violence without a proper investigation. It said many times the alleged victims do not file complaints making it difficult to follow through on those cases.

Hebron is one example. There are countless others. One just has to look at the miserable conditions in the Gaza strip, or the 400 mile wall being built inside the West Bank which, besides taking land away from Palestinians, will prevent them from having the ability to travel for employment, medical care, education, etc.

[Guest]

Would you be interested in discussing specific topics from Moyers?

Just saw your post Rick. Good point. Sorry for going off track. I'll cease and desist on the Israel vs. Palestine stuff in this thread.