Proof Regeneration Precedes Faith

[Guest]

tartanarmy wrote:
I quoted that passage already.
Homer believes that we can obey that passage and become perfect. Well, if he is consistent with his answer given that is.

Mark

So what did Paul mean when He said:

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So, you are arguing that Christians can be perfect from these two scriptures?

Not only that, it begs the question, if fallen man can do nothing but sin, they why is it that regenerated man, whose nature is changed and he has the Holy Spirit inside him causing him to do Gods' will, why is it that such a man can't stop sinning?

The one thing a Christian knows, is just how much of a sinner he is. The longer I am a Christian, the more I see my sin! Please read Romans 7.

Does the Holy Spirit and a regenerated heart not enough to overcome sin?

Only God working in and through us can overcome sin, and not perfectly, as that shall not be until we are glorified.
Christians will walk in good works, imperfectly, stumbling, pressing on, mourning over their sins.

Blessed are those who mourn is sanctification for the regenerate.

Is sin more powerful? Or is it at least possible that another will is involved, like mans'?

Of course man's will is involved, but it is God driving the man, bringing him into conformity to holiness, through much trials and sufferings, even falling down, yet pressing us on to maturity and growth, conforming us to the image of Christ.

It seems that Paul's constant exhortations show that man's will is involved, both before and after conversion.

Man has nothing to do with regeneration. Nothing, nada, zip!
God regenerates. God brings a dead sinner to life.
Faith and repentance are the result. Man's will is changed from one of slave to sin into a slave for righteousness and Christ.
Again, sanctification progresses through many trials and pain, rebuke, suffering, weakness etc.

tartanarmy wrote:

First of all, I see no point in immediately jumping ahead to another context. Seems to be just looking for a passage that can be used against the plain context of what I cited, but be that as it may.

Is it not valid to use scripture to interpret scripture? Especially when the same metaphor is being used?

What exactly is the same with regards to these passages?

tartanarmy wrote:

Why are you assuming that man has the ability to bring himself back from being dead in sin? Think about that. Is it in the text?

First, this is a misunderstanding of what the non-Calvinist believes. The non-Calvinist believes that God regenerates man (brings him back from the dead), not that man does this.

Yes I know that, but WHEN is where the debate lies between us. Post faith or pre faith?
Are we born again because we believe or do we believe because we have been born again?

This would be like saying that in Romans 4 Abraham justified himself by his own works. The debate is weather God does this after or before faith. This text does not speak to this so it benefits no one.

Which text?

Also, the metaphor of being dead is not literal. In this case of "dead in trespasses and sin".

I get that!
Dead meaning spiritually dead, meaning not able to discern the spiritual, meaning hostile to God, meaning not subject to God, meaning cannot please God. DEAD!
As scripture teaches over and over.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard its spots? Then you also may do good, who are accustomed to doing evil.

Is not exercising faith something that is good and pleasing to God?
Yet, in the flesh (unregenerate man) we cannot please God.

The natural man is well described for us below,

Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, There is no soundness in it, But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up, Or soothed with ointment.

This can easily mean that man is "as good as dead" being a sinner. As in, "the wages of sin is death". Nothing man can do will pay his sin debt. God, in Christ has paid the debt.

I am sorry, but that interpretation completely misses the mark.

The fact we cannot pay the debt we owe does not begin to show the depravity of man from the biblical picture. Man is not merely “sick” or even “seriously sick”. He is dead. Dead is dead, and a spiritually dead man can do nothing, let alone work up faith!

Saying he cannot pay the sin debt misses the complete picture and seems like an a poor way of avoiding the fact that regeneration precedes anything the man does!

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-

tartanarmy wrote:

Paul knows that man does not have the ability to do this.
Command does not imply ability. If it did, then we could all keep the commandments, or we could be perfect even as God Himself is perfect.

Homer already commented on this, I would just like to add that even before the Holy Spirit was poured out, there were those who were said to keep the commandments of God.

Yes outwardly as men before men can certainly do, but Jesus turned up the heat upon that idea didn’t He?
The whole Bible makes the point that man does not perfectly keep the law, far from it.
Inwardly, man is utterly undone before the eyes of God.
See Mat 5:22, Mat 5:28, Mat 5:44, Rich young ruler.

Before men, we can have an outward righteousness.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

That is not referring to the “natural man” and is therefore not relevant to this discussion.
The believer does walk upright, and being justified is to be imputed as righteous and blameless.

You are arguing that the natural man can do good, especially to have the ability to exercise faith and repentance toward God.
You are simply wrong about that, and such a belief offends God and exalts man, regardless of what you may think.
Now, if I am right here and you are wrong, what are you going to do about it? Seriously!

tartanarmy wrote:

Back to Ephesians 2:5,
God makes us alive. Now we know this is referring to Spiritually alive. The text says that while we were “dead”, meaning “not alive spiritually” or as he himself states elsewhere, “Natural man, In the flesh” etc.
God takes the initiative and “while” we are yet dead, He “makes” us alive.
That is monergism.


Yes God makes us alive, we are made Spiritually alive by the Spirit. But this doesn't happen until we repent and believe (Acts 2:38).

No. The text explicitly says “whilst WE WERE DEAD”.
That is, when we were spiritually dead.
Where is the idea that spiritually dead people can exercise faith and repentance in this text?
I say it again.
Is not this act of faith and repentance something which would please God?

Scripture plainly says, Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jesus even mentioned receiving the Holy Spirit this way:
Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Simple context.
Jesus here is addressing His followers and speaking to those who would be His disciples, and the promise is for them to receive and by extension the Church to receive the Holy Spirit, but such comes through seeking and earnestly petitioning the good gifts that God has for His children. See
Mat 7:11
Jesus is not speaking about the natural man in these passages, as He talks about the dogs just a few passages before, signifying, His instruction here is to those who are followers.

And just to be clear, even if you want to own these passages as relevant to the natural man, i.e. unbeliever,

Calvinism does not deny that we “ASK”.
That is not the issue. The issue is still the same.

The text tells us nothing about the timing of any “asking”.

Regeneration precedes asking, for “asking” shows a prior work of God upon the sinner, through the normal means of hearing and being taught the scriptures, namely hearing the Gospel of their salvation.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So did Jesus say we get the "gift" before or after we "ask"?

For believers, we seek and we shall find.
For unbelievers, they are sought out and found.

Consider Lydia,
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Did Lydia believe before her heart was opened or after?

Isa 65:1 I am sought by those who asked not for Me; I am found by those who did not seek Me. I said, Behold Me, behold Me, to a nation not calling on My name.

Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold and says, "I was found by those who did not seek Me, I became known to those who did not ask after Me."

tartanarmy wrote:

If being converted was a synergistic thing, then we would have room to take some credit in our salvation. We did something that others did not do.
We can boast in synergism, but the Apostle says, “lest any man should boast”


Not according to Paul in Romans 4. I've already commented on this in another thread but no one commented. Paul says:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

All I can say is that it seems Paul disagrees with your observation. Faith is something Abraham "did" but it was not considered a "work" which are "not counted as Grace but debt". Faith is something "done" by man but not considered a "work" in Gods' eyes.

Name me a Calvinist who denies that faith is not something which we do?

Faith cannot ever be a work if it is something we receive.
We agree with each other at this point.

Where we disagree is how faith comes about?

If it is something that we do apart from God’s enabling grace, then it is something which we have done, and is therefore no longer grace!

That is why Paul says, Rom 11:6 But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

tartanarmy wrote:

Elsewhere he says, 1Co 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?


Man is made in the image of God, and man knows "good and evil". These are things man has "received" are they not?

How does that answer my point?
Grace = Undeserved mercy = leads to regeneration = faith and repentance = All of which is a gift from God!

Paul says:

6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?

Is Paul not talking to the Corinthians? Why would one be puffed up against another over having faith or not? The Corinthians who were warned not to be puffed up against one another were already believers. So why use this verse to divide a believer from a non-believer. Is that the context of this passage?

The point I am making, is that everything we have comes by God’s mercy to us, and for believers that includes all spiritual blessings, such as a justifying righteousness, sanctifying grace, remission of sin, adoption, strength to perform good works, to bear and suffer reproach and persecution for Christ, and to persevere to the end, with a right and title to eternal glory.

If a man thinks he can turn of his own free will to God, in sincere faith, prior to the Work of God in regeneration, then he is boasting.

He is saying he has done something that others have not done.

Whatever that something is, apart from regeneration, it is boasting before God, and is sin and an offence to the Holy Spirit.
If it was not pure free grace that causes you to repent and believe, then it is boasting, pure and simple, and needs to be repented of.

Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.

tartanarmy wrote:

There is no boasting in Monergism Homer, so I would ask you.

Did you by an act of your fallen, natural man will, (which cannot please God and is not able to please Him) reach out in order to take salvation, or did God, by an act of sheer grace and mercy, draw you to Himself, and then you acted in faith and repentance because you could do nothing else, being amazed by His love for you?

Mark


Your misconstruing the non-Calvinist position giving these two choices. One we do not hold and one you hold. Actually my position is much like your second option, except that I could do something else, as the scriptures affirm some do.

Then you are not saved by sheer grace alone.
I do hope you will simply re-think your theology.

Give God all the glory for your salvation!
Leave whatever it is you think you did, that others somehow did not do! And leave it at the cross as filthy rags.

For you to do that one thing, that “something else” would be considered some kind of righteous act, wouldn’t it?
But you know better than that!

You were a “natural man” when you did that “something else”.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Mark

[Guest]

Homer

I am new to this forum. The subject of regeneration preceding faith is clearly in my mind, either specifically said or implied throughout scripture.
I am neither a Calvinist or an Arminian. What seems to be the rub between the two views really boils down to one question in my mind;
who does the saving? I came to a personal understanding from several NT passages that our rebirth (regeneration) is a new birth from above.
If I understand John correctly, he states that it is not of human will, decision, etc, but of God. Jn 1:12-13. Human effort has no part. The subject of regeneration is passive. The result will be conversion to Christ.
What helped me understand this even better was Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in Jn 3; no one can see.. no one can enter.. etc except that he be born from above".. (born again in the translations).

It became even easier for me to understand when I contrasted the new birth to my own fleshly birth. I did not ask my parents to be born. I merely recieved life from them. I did not ask God to make me born again either. I simply recieved it as the gracious gift that it truly is and now I am trying to understand it! Iam trying to live for Him as well. I am alive to Him only because of His grace and mercy.

I also realized what was lost in Adam at the fall was that Life, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. He could not pass on the life of God. He lost it and therefore died and we died with him. What we have in Christ, as the second Adam, is that Life restored. Jesus said, "I came to give Life".. my words are Spirit and they are Life".. the flesh counts for nothing...

There is more . But think Tartanarmy covered much of the subject.
Blessing in Jesus to you,
Bob

[Guest]

Mark,

You wrote:

Consider Lydia,
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Did Lydia believe before her heart was opened or after?

She believed after her heart was opened. But how was her heart opened? By being regenerated first? Where do you find that in the text?

Consider the whole context, Acts 16:13-15:
13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

Lydia was a worshiper of God. The Gospel was preached to her. She heard it. The Lord (Spirit) opened her heart to heed it. She was baptized. There is no reason to think she was first regenerated prior to hearing the Gospel. "The gospel...is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes", Romans 2:16. The Gospel, with the convicting of the Holy Spirit, enables the subject to believe in Christ. Regeneration follows faith.

You continually harp on spiritually "dead" people being unable to respond to the Gospel. What does it mean to be nekros, "dead"? You need to consider what this word actually means:

1. Literally dead. As in "He is risen from the dead".
2. Figuratively dead, meaning fruitless or useless. (Wigram)

In Ephesians 2 we read of those who were dead who were made alive with Christ. When did they believe? In between being dead and being made alive? At the time they were made alive? After? Can you prove what you believe from the text?

In hebrews 6:1 we find a definite figurative use of nekros, "dead works". The same with James when he says "faith without works is "dead", i.e., fruitless, useless. Likewise when you say:

Dead meaning spiritually dead, meaning not able to discern the spiritual, meaning hostile to God, meaning not subject to God, meaning cannot please God. DEAD!
As scripture teaches over and over.

Where is the proof that "dead" means any more than "fruitless or useless", not that the Gospel is powerless to convict, with the help of the Holy Spirit, John 16:8; "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment..."? It does not say "He will convict the regenerated".

[_Sean]

So, you are arguing that Christians can be perfect from these two scriptures?

I'm not arguing anything, just citing what Paul said.

Not only that, it begs the question, if fallen man can do nothing but sin, they why is it that regenerated man, whose nature is changed and he has the Holy Spirit inside him causing him to do Gods' will, why is it that such a man can't stop sinning?

The one thing a Christian knows, is just how much of a sinner he is. The longer I am a Christian, the more I see my sin! Please read Romans 7.

I was speaking about Romans 6. Sure, Romans 7 is there, but keep reading into Romans 8, namely verses 5-6.

Believe it or not, I'm seeking the truth in this matter. For Calvinism to be true, you must show from the scriptures why someone who is dead in sin can never make any motions of repentance. You already believe that dead to sin means you can still sin. So quoting passages that say the unregenerate are "dead" does not prove your case, since you reject the notion that "dead" means "inability" when applied to the regenerate.

Man has nothing to do with regeneration. Nothing, nada, zip!
God regenerates. God brings a dead sinner to life.

I agree, we both agree. It's the next part we disagree with.

Faith and repentance are the result. Man's will is changed from one of slave to sin into a slave for righteousness and Christ.

That doesn't seem to be what is stated in the bible.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There are many other examples that can be given. Being born of the Spirit did not happen here until they repented (believed). The same is stated in John 3:14-15 and John 20:31, regeneration comes after belief.
Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. His belief was first, justification came next. Are you saying one is regenerated first, but not yet justified? How can one be born again and still be "declared guilty"?

Is not exercising faith something that is good and pleasing to God?
Yet, in the flesh (unregenerate man) we cannot please God.

The fact we cannot pay the debt we owe does not begin to show the depravity of man from the biblical picture. Man is not merely “sick” or even “seriously sick”. He is dead. Dead is dead, and a spiritually dead man can do nothing, let alone work up faith!

Again, I have always tried to seek out the truth on this subject. I'm still not understanding your use of scripture to make your point. You are saying that faith is pleasing to God, and that in the flesh we cannot please God. Yet the scripture also says (Rom 6) that we are now dead to sin and that we are not to let sin reign in our bodies and that he who has died has been freed from sin. You seem to take that to mean something less than 100% effective in the life of the Christian. Is it not possible that Paul is giving the general tendencies (bent) of both the regenerate and unregenerate? It seems that your betraying your view by saying "dead" only means "total inability" when applied to unbelievers, but you then soften these same terms when applied to Christian. This seems arbitrary. Please help me out and explain why your not applying the meaning of these terms equally.

The natural man is well described for us below,

Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, There is no soundness in it, But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up, Or soothed with ointment.

Yes, but this does not tell us if a man can make choices or not. I can choose to get cancer treatment, but I can't make it go away. Just because I lake the power to change does not mean I also lack the will.

Paul knows that man does not have the ability to do this.
Command does not imply ability. If it did, then we could all keep the commandments, or we could be perfect even as God Himself is perfect.

Interesting, so if we did have the ability, are you saying we would then be perfect, or at least very good at it? Is that not what we already discussed from Romans 6, regenerated man now has the ability to keep the commands of Christ since he is dead to sin and alive to God. Does that mean we keep them perfect? Or most of the time? I don't see how your statement is even consistent with your own understanding. Maybe I'm just uncertain of what you are getting at.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

That is not referring to the “natural man” and is therefore not relevant to this discussion.

I don't see how you can assert something currently under debate. Are you saying that this passage is referring to people who already received the Spirit before it had been given? (John 7:39)
Remember, Christ called those who already belonged to God, they were already believers. They still needed to be "born again" by the Spirit.

You are arguing that the natural man can do good, especially to have the ability to exercise faith and repentance toward God.
You are simply wrong about that, and such a belief offends God and exalts man, regardless of what you may think.
Now, if I am right here and you are wrong, what are you going to do about it? Seriously!

It offends God that man (made in God's image) might do something good sometimes? Again, as I stated before, you haven't explained why unregenerate can't ever do good, but the regenerate can do both, and it's their own choice. We are called slaves, either way (Rom 6:16). Why is that you contend a slave cannot disobey it's master when the master is sin, but can disobey his master if his master is God? Do human slaves ever disobey their master?

No. The text explicitly says “whilst WE WERE DEAD”.
That is, when we were spiritually dead.
Where is the idea that spiritually dead people can exercise faith and repentance in this text?

It's implied throughout scripture, I've given citations above. Here's just one:

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Cornelius was devout and feared God, yet we know he was not yet saved:

Acts 11:13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

There are many things we can learn from this. Cornelius was not yet saved, but seemed to "please" God. Since salvation includes regeneration, we know Cornelius was not regenerated either. In the words of Paul:

Titus 3:5 He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So we know Cornelius was not regenerated yet.

We also see that the Spirit does not come (and regenerate us) until we believe (Acts 11:17).

So belief precedes regeneration and the unregenerate can please God. This is one biblical citation/reason why I reject Calvinist explanations of salvation.

I say it again.
Is not this act of faith and repentance something which would please God?

Sure, just as a saved Christian can sin, the unsaved can sometimes respond to the call of God. They don't come up with this on their own, God comes to them, and they respond (or not).

Scripture plainly says, Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And it also says:
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

So while I understand your quoting of Romans 8:8 to make your point, you are still neglecting the fact that the flip side is that regenerate man is suppose to be the opposite of who he used to be. I've mentioned with this already above.

Jesus even mentioned receiving the Holy Spirit this way:
Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Simple context.
Jesus here is addressing His followers and speaking to those who would be His disciples, and the promise is for them to receive and by extension the Church to receive the Holy Spirit, but such comes through seeking and earnestly petitioning the good gifts that God has for His children. See
Mat 7:11
Jesus is not speaking about the natural man in these passages, as He talks about the dogs just a few passages before, signifying, His instruction here is to those who are followers.

So when Jesus said "If you then, being evil" he wasn't talking to the unregenerate?

Regeneration precedes asking,

I think I've shown passages above that say otherwise. I don't see any mention of people being born again before they believed.

Take Acts 8 for example:

Acts 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

So they believed and were baptized, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit, they had not been born again yet.

Consider Lydia,
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Did Lydia believe before her heart was opened or after?

Homer answered this already but I just wanted to add that her heart was opened by God but she worshiped God first, before God "opened her heart". So how was she able to please God by worshiping Him before God opened her heart?

Name me a Calvinist who denies that faith is not something which we do?

Faith cannot ever be a work if it is something we receive.
We agree with each other at this point.

Where we disagree is how faith comes about?

If it is something that we do apart from God’s enabling grace, then it is something which we have done, and is therefore no longer grace!

That is why Paul says, Rom 11:6 But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Now I don't understand your quoting of Romans 11:6. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God...16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace.

If it's of works, then it's not Grace. If it's of faith, then it's of Grace.

You can't contend that "if it's something we do". Of course faith is something we do. Abraham did it. Paul says faith is not a work in the eyes of God. Is it a gift, yes. God gives many gifts but that doesn't mean people will use them. Remember what you said, "Command does not imply ability". So would you say that if God commands people to repent and believe the gospel that everyone who receives the gift of faith will exercise it? It was not this way with the Jews in Hebrews

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard

Paul says:
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?

Is Paul not talking to the Corinthians? Why would one be puffed up against another over having faith or not? The Corinthians who were warned not to be puffed up against one another were already believers. So why use this verse to divide a believer from a non-believer. Is that the context of this passage?

Paul is not talking about one having faith and another not having faith because faith is not something we can boast about says Paul:

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

No one can boast about faith, Paul's own words. It the Calvinist who makes this claim. I don't think you can read out of the Corinthians passage what you claim, if you could Paul would contradict himself.

Faith in God in trust in Him, not in yourself. You trust in Him because there is nothing in you that you can give to God to commend yourself. Faith isn't something that puffs you up. How does saying I'm a worthless sinner who deserves death puff one up? That's what faith is, denial of self. Not puffing up oneself.

Now if you zero in on my statement "there is nothing in you that you can give to God to commend yourself" realize that per Paul in Romans 3:27, 4:16 (and other places) that faith is something we can't boast in.

If a man thinks he can turn of his own free will to God, in sincere faith, prior to the Work of God in regeneration, then he is boasting.

He is saying he has done something that others have not done.

Sure, you could say he has done something someone else has done. That's what evangelism is! Telling people to repent and believe, just as you have done. Is there not a difference between an repentant and unrepentant sinner?

But I do not believe one can turn of his own free will to God. The prior work is the drawing of all men (John 12:32) Some, however, reject the will of God and do not believe.

Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Whatever that something is, apart from regeneration, it is boasting before God, and is sin and an offence to the Holy Spirit.
If it was not pure free grace that causes you to repent and believe, then it is boasting, pure and simple, and needs to be repented of.

I hear you brother, I just can't find evidence of what you are saying. It seems that you are drawn by God and either place faith in God or reject Him. Abraham placed faith in God, a no time does Paul say that faith was placed in Abraham. It was something he "did".

Then you are not saved by sheer grace alone.
I do hope you will simply re-think your theology.

I'm not saved by sheer grace alone, I'm saved by God. His grace comes to all who believe. Salvation is by faith so that it can be of grace.

Hopefully there aren't too many typos.

[Guest]

An initial faith precedes regeneration, and a deeper faith follows regeneration.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed out of faith intofaith; as it is written, "The righteous shall live out of faith". Romans 1:16,17 Emphasis mine.

The gospel is the power of God. It is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith ---- present tense. It seems to me that an experimental faith is necessary to enter the door of salvation. Then, once having entered the door, we continue the process through the gospel of the kingdom, the message that we are to submit to the king. This takes a daily practice of experiential faith. Thus the righteousness of God is revealed to us ( not a positional righteousness, but and actual righteousness). It is revealed out of our initial experimental faith into experiential faith which continues in deeper measure as we appropriate the enabling grace of Christ toward righteousness. The preposition "eis" (into) in Greek often indicates that the object of this preposition is the goal. As we continue to apply the message of the gospel, the message of submitting to the King, Jesus, we move toward the goal of deeper and deeper faith, by which we appropriate God's enabling grace and continue in the process of salvation until we are perfected.

[Guest]

Homer, brother!

She believed after her heart was opened. But how was her heart opened? By being regenerated first? Where do you find that in the text?

“whose heart the Lord opened” Act 16:14

That is regeneration!

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

You continually harp on spiritually "dead" people being unable to respond to the Gospel. What does it mean to be nekros, "dead"? You need to consider what this word actually means:

1. Literally dead. As in "He is risen from the dead".
2. Figuratively dead, meaning fruitless or useless. (Wigram)

In Ephesians 2 we read of those who were dead who were made alive with Christ. When did they believe? In between being dead and being made alive? At the time they were made alive? After? Can you prove what you believe from the text?

I am proving it over and over and over, but if you have a predisposition to libertarian free will, there is nothing I can do to persuade you.

I know what dead means, and whether it be physically or figuratively, makes absolutely no difference to what I am saying.

You are the one harping on about “free will” not me.

In hebrews 6:1 we find a definite figurative use of nekros, "dead works". The same with James when he says "faith without works is "dead", i.e., fruitless, useless. Likewise when you say:

Quote:
Dead meaning spiritually dead, meaning not able to discern the spiritual, meaning hostile to God, meaning not subject to God, meaning cannot please God. DEAD!
As scripture teaches over and over.


Where is the proof that "dead" means any more than "fruitless or useless",

Look, even if that is what you want “dead” to mean, no matter what context etc, how on earth does it change anything I am saying?

not that the Gospel is powerless to convict, with the help of the Holy Spirit, John 16:8; "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment..."? It does not say "He will convict the regenerated".

Who is saying otherwise?

Why misrepresent or change context on me?

What value is there in that?
The Holy Spirit either convicts every single person in the world or He does not?
Which is it?

Not every single person who ever lived or now living is convicted by the Holy Spirit!
Man, you have to interpret scripture with some degree of hermeneutics!

And, He does not convict the regenerated!

He convicts all kinds of sinners from every Tribe, Tongue and Nation who are dead in trespasses and sins from among the whole wide world, and those whom are convicted of their sin, God’s righteousness and the judgement to come shall be regenerated = born anew = repent and believe.

Please follow the argument and the flow of scripture which teaches it everywhere.

I could quote a whole volley of texts that would overwhelm this topic, but I have from the beginning only quoted a few passages at a time.

Every time I quote scriptures I get a stark refusal.
I get a “It cant mean that!” etc

I never ever get an “actual positive exegesis” from the same text, proving your assertions.

I get no exegesis.

I get “another” passage to deal with.

I get another “misrepresentative accusation of Calvinism such as <It does not say "He will convict the regenerated> or <i>” thrown into the equation.

Smoke and dust, but no real and tangible substance.
What else can I do Homer, please advise me brother?

How much more scripture is needed?
How much more reasonable do I need to be?

If you loose this “philosophical predisposition to libertarian free will”, the scriptures might open up like a huge stream flowing healthily in the one direction, namely God-ward, quenching man's puny right to libertarianism and rightfully giving God the full and complete glory for all of salvation as scripture testifies at every turn.

There, rant over!
But you did accuse me of harping!

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Mark

[Guest]

Sean!
What are ya tryin to do to me man?
Workin on a reply brother!

Mark

[Guest]

sean wrote:

It offends God that man (made in God's image) might do something good sometimes?

good question-- it brings to mind the parable of the "good samaritan." presumably the samaritan was not even of the "correct" religion of the day, and presumably did not truly know God, yet Jesus used him as an example of "goodness" in that he showed compassion to his "neighbor" while the "religious" people (the priest and levite) did not.

TK

[_Sean]

Sean!
What are ya tryin to do to me man?
Workin on a reply brother!

Mark

Tell me about it, it took me 2 hours to type that up.

Don't type so much next time!

[Guest]

Well, we are certainly putting in the effort.

tartanarmy wrote:

So, you are arguing that Christians can be perfect from these two scriptures?


I'm not arguing anything, just citing what Paul said.

I know what Paul said, but what are you saying Paul said?
John taught sinless perfectionism, and it wasn’t the apostle either, but Mr Wesley a few hundred years ago!

Quote:
Not only that, it begs the question, if fallen man can do nothing but sin, they why is it that regenerated man, whose nature is changed and he has the Holy Spirit inside him causing him to do Gods' will, why is it that such a man can't stop sinning?

tartanarmy wrote:

The one thing a Christian knows, is just how much of a sinner he is. The longer I am a Christian, the more I see my sin! Please read Romans 7.


I was speaking about Romans 6. Sure, Romans 7 is there, but keep reading into Romans 8, namely verses 5-6.

Believe it or not, I'm seeking the truth in this matter. For Calvinism to be true, you must show from the scriptures why someone who is dead in sin can never make any motions of repentance.

Not to be unnecessarily awkward, but do you notice how you jump from Christians and sinning to unbelievers and repentance?
It’s as if you fail to distinguish between these two groups.

You already believe that dead to sin means you can still sin. So quoting passages that say the unregenerate are "dead" does not prove your case, since you reject the notion that "dead" means "inability".

Dead refers to “spiritual life” not any other sense here.

Dead sinners eat, sleep, argue, raise families, invent stuff and even give to charity and cure diseases but dead sinners do not raise themselves to spiritual life by an act of their will.

That is a spiritual matter, of which they are not able to discern nor embrace, unless a prior work is done upon and in them by The Holy Spirit.
Then, and only then, shall they willingly respond.

That is what scripture without doubt teaches, and is what Calvinism teaches.

tartanarmy wrote:

Man has nothing to do with regeneration. Nothing, nada, zip!
God regenerates. God brings a dead sinner to life.


I agree, we both agree. It's the next part we disagree with.

tartanarmy wrote:

Faith and repentance are the result. Man's will is changed from one of slave to sin into a slave for righteousness and Christ.


That doesn't seem to be what is stated in the bible.

You are coming to these passages (below) with a predisposed bias and to the detriment of other scriptures which address “precisely” this very thing regarding regeneration.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Let me simply break it down without “assuming” this thing called libertarian free will that scripture nowhere teaches.

1/ Peter tells these people to repent.

First of all, this admonishment to repent is made after the gospel has been preached to them, and upon the response of these persons who have had their “hearts” stabbed (kat-an-oos'-so
Meaning to Pierce thoroughly) . (v 31)

Is this relevant? Absolutely.

Before people repent, there is the work of the preaching of the gospel, (whole of Acts 2) and “if” accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit, (which here in context, He is working see vs 2, 17 and 18 ) results in hearts being changed.

-This “heart” work is the prior work of the Spirit.
-This work produces an effect upon all for whom receive it.
-This work leads to regeneration, which is the New Birth.
-The new birth, leads immediately to repentance and faith, which leads to justification and conversion.

It is a logical concurrence, but may last just a few seconds.

One might labour under the weight of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit for hours, days, months and even years!, before regeneration takes place.

Ok, what does the scripture say about repentance?
How does it come to us?
See below, Act 5:31, Act 11:18, Rom 2:4, 2Co 7:10, 2Ti 2:25

This is part 1. Please wait until I respond to the rest! Thanks.
Mark

Act 5:31 This One God has exalted to be a Ruler and Savior to His right hand in order to give repentance and remission of sins to Israel.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they were silent and glorified God, saying, Then God has also granted repentance to life to the nations.

Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 in meekness instructing those who oppose, if perhaps God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth,

2Co 7:10 For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death.