The foreknowledge of God: a question for Arminians

Post by **_Sean** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:54 am

Paidion wrote:
Let's look at the Jewish Publication Society's translation:

And I said: After she hath done all these things, she will return unto me; but she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. JPS

We can see that using "said" instead of "thought" does not eliminate the problem for those who believe that the future actions of free-will agents are knowable.

For if God said, "She will return to me," but she returned not, then God, who cannot lie, must not have known that she would not return.

Thanks for the time you put into this. I still, however, disagree with your conclusion. We can stack up scriptures on both sides and neither side will win, in the end.

Jeremiah uses figureative language, as does Revelation. The reason I put the quotes from the book of Revelation was to show the contrast between the quote you used and the conclusion you are drawing from it, and the book of Revelation that is dedicated to what must "shortly come to pass".

I'm wondering what impact reading the book of Revelation will have on someone who sees God as possibly missing His predictions.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:47 am

Like I said in another post, if God "predicts" the future by making it happen, then human free will is violated, leading toward the slippery slope of calvinism. However, if God can see past our free will choices (as you just said) then why can God not see past all of them and know all things that will happen?

Yes Sean, sometimes God intervenes and does violate our free will but only to steer the ship as oppossed to micromanaging every detail of everyone's life.
"Indeed i have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass , I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isa 46.11
Jesus prayed for God's will be done not human free will to be done. This is just my theory and you can rightly call it speculation but since there are many verses that indicate God was sorry or regretted something such as creating man for example yet in other places it seems like God can see past time perhaps God somehow choses to allow man true free will by some self imposed veiling on Himself regarding free will. That's not to say that God does'nt answer prayers but i mean things outside of God's will.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:48 am

steve7150 mentioned:

some self imposed veiling on Himself

my pastor actually believes something like this, although i dont think he says it just like that. an all -powerful God could in fact "limit" his knowledge of some things if He wanted to, it would seem. it would not violate sovereignty because the limitation is self-imposed. maybe.

TK

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:41 pm

my pastor actually believes something like this, although i dont think he says it just like that. an all -powerful God could in fact "limit" his knowledge of some things if He wanted to, it would seem. it would not violate sovereignty because the limitation is self-imposed. maybe.

Why not? Doesn't God say he remembers our sins no more? If so, why couldn't he deal with the present time irrespective of the actual future, and have set in mind a course He has placed before us, with the desire for us to obey Him with all of our heart and being, where we will fulfil the ideal destiny he has for us?

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:07 pm

Yes, I agree that God sometimes limits His knowledge. The following seems to be an instance:

2 Chronicles 32:31 And so in the matter of the envoys of the princes of Babylon, who had been sent to him to inquire about the sign that had been done in the land, God left him to himself, in order to test him and to know all that was in his heart.

However, this is not the case, when we say that God does not know what a free will agent will choose. As I have shown elsewhere, statements about future choices of free will agents are neither true nor false. So no one can know in advance what those choices will be, since there is nothing to know.

Post by **_Sean** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:18 am

Paidion wrote: However, this is not the case, when we say that God does not know what a free will agent will choose. As I have shown elsewhere, statements about future choices of free will agents are neither true nor false. So no one can know in advance what those choices will be, since there is nothing to know.

Mybe, maybe not. The problem is that God has predicted future choices of free will agents before they occured.

1Sa 23:7 Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, "God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars."
1Sa 23:8 And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.
1Sa 23:9 David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod here."
1Sa 23:10 Then said David, "O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account.
1Sa 23:11 Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant." And the LORD said, "He will come down."
1Sa 23:12 Then David said, "Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the LORD said, "They will surrender you."
1Sa 23:13 Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition.

How did God know what was going to happen when those events never even took place?

They didn't take place because God warned Daivd and changed the "future" as it were. Them surrendering David was a free-will choice that could not be known about ahead of time. If the outcome was obvious, why didn't David figure it out on his own? God's response isn't "I think" it's "they will".

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:54 am

How did God know what was going to happen when those events never even took place?

This question is often asked even when mere human beings correctly predict what others will do. "How did you know he was going to do that?"

In the passage you quoted there is nothing which unequivocally shows that God knew what Saul or the men of Keilah would choose. Rather God read their minds, and knew their intentions, and was aware of the likelihodd that they would have carried out their intentions.

In WW2, calamaties were often avoided by learning the intentions of the German forces by decoding their secret messages. Does that mean that the allies "knew" that the German forces would carry out their intentions? In all likelihood they would. But did they have to do so? Was it ineviable? Hardly. Knowing one's intentions does not cause him to carry those intentionst. But knowing what he will actually do implies that he will actually do that. And if it is true that he will actually do that, he cannot do otherwise. None of this applies to the scripture you have quoted.

God, who can look into the hearts of man is in a much better position to know people's intentions since He can immediately perceive everyone's intentions whenever He wishes to do so.

So God's word "They will surrender you," was not a statement of God's foreknowledge of what the men of Keilah would actually do. If it had been, then the men of Keilah would have actually surrendered David. The statement "They will surrender you" is a statement about the intentions of the men of Keilah. God was fully aware of those intentions, and gave David the information He needed to avert the carrying out of those intentions.