Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Michelle,
Just to say I saw your reply, thanks.
Homer & Paidion,
(The actual Greek words for types of homosexuals are in Paul, though Jesus is not on record as ever mentioning them. Jesus had no need to specify them as all Jews knew homosexual practice was sin from the Law of Moses. And, as far as we know, Jesus never encountered a homosexual, though he possibly did. (I brought this up as an aside in the thread to make my point about how some say "We follow Christ, not the Law", etc.). I just felt something needed to said about this as Christians do follow the Law of Moses on morality, just as Jesus did)....

Other than this, I haven't been able to understand what dmatic, nor the rest of you, have been arguing for and against (I can't tell what the Basic Premises are). Recently I've posted on the thread about "a couple of confusing points" (though I don't really understand anyone's position on the thread). I sensed a serious need for at least some clarification...(especially for any non-Christians who might be reading)...so I posted. Thanks.

[Guest]

Other than this, I haven't been able to understand what dmatic, nor the rest of you, have been arguing for and against (I can't tell what the Basic Premises are). Recently I've posted on the thread about "a couple of confusing points" (though I don't really understand anyone's position on the thread). I sensed a serious need for at least some clarification...(especially for any non-Christians who might be reading)...so I posted. Thanks.

"Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"

I've always wanted to blurt that out in the middle of a debate, maybe after it seems the debate is going nowhere.

What in the world am I talking about?

In the context of Acts 19, we read this:

Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused, and most of them did not know why they had come together.

Rick, is this what the people in this thread seem like?
In this context, the people had all come together and were shouting "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" even though they weren't sure why they were there.
It's kind of a way of me saying "Why am I here!?"
So I'm going forward anyway.


dmatic,
Can you comment on Galatians 2:11-21? What was Peter doing wrong that got Paul so mad?

[Guest]

Sean, Earlier on, I gave my views on the Sabbath (related to the thread's title). When I got "hammered" on it, I left. Outside of this, my recent posts warned Christians about making false statements about the Law (especially since there may be non-Christian readers, I felt had I to say something).

At any rate, I made my point and am gone (till I sense a need to come back).
No need to reply, Sean. It looks like people are pretty upset and I hope they, and you, sort it out.

[Guest]

Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you
Resist not evil, if a man smite thee on one cheek, turn to him the other
Avenge not yourselves, rather give place unto wrath, and suffer yourselves to be defrauded.
If a man takes away thy goods , ask them not back.
Agree with your adversary, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace.
Labor not to be rich , be ready to every good work, give to those who ask , relieve the afflicted.
Do not give your alms before men , let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Overcome evil with good.
Bless them that curse you.
Pray for them that dispitefully use you and afflict you.
Grudge not,complain not,condemn not.
Put away anger, wrath, bitterness, and all evil speaking.
Confess your faults to one anothyer.
Be not conformed to the world, love not the world.
Deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts. If your right hand offends you, cut it off.
Servants be faithful, even to bad masters.
Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate.
Owe no man anything.
In case of sin, speak not of it to others, but tell the offending brother of the matter between you and him alone, with a view toward recovery.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Pray always, with brevity and simplicity, pray secretly.
In everything give thanks to God and recognize Him in all your ways.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Take Christ for an example and follow in his steps.
Let Christ dwell in your heart by faith.
Esteem Christ more highly then all earthly things , yes then your own life.
Confess Christ freely before men.
Beware lest the cares of life or the allurements of pleasure weaken his hold on your heart.
love your neighbor as yourself.
Exercise lordship over no one.
Seek not your own welfare only , not bear your own burdens merely but have regard to those of others.
Let your light shine before men hold forth the word of life, do good to all men as you have the opportunity.
Be blameless and harmless as sons of God.
Be gentle, meek, king hearted, compassionate, merciful, forgiving.
Be sober, grave, sincere and temporate.
Speak the truth every man with his neighbor, put away all lying.
Whatever you do , do it heartily as unto the Lord.
Be watchful, vigilant, brave, joyful, courteous and manly.
Be clothed with humility, be patient toward all.
Follow peace with all men.
Sympathise in the joys and sorrows of others.
Follow after things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous and praiseful.
Refrain from adultery, fornication, uncleanness, drunkeness, covetousness, wrath, strife, sedition, hatred, emulation, boasting, vainglory, envy, jesting and foolish talking.
Do all to the glory of God.
Obey rulers, submit to every ordinance of man fore the Lord's sake.
Be holy in all manner of conversation.
Let your speech be always with grace seasoned with salt.
Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God what is God's.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the mournful for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account . Rejoice and be glad for your reward is in heaven , for so they persecuted the prophets before you.
Let not your heart be troubled.
Be anxious for nothing.
Cast your cares unto the Lord.
Take out the log from your own eye and then you will see clearly to take out the speck from your brother's eye.
Seek first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness and all these things will be added to you.
Sufficient for the day is it's own trouble.
Therefore i tell you whatever you ask in prayer , believe that you have received it and it will be yours.
And whenever you stand praying, forgive if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

[Guest]

Dematic, you said that you can't find anything different in Christ's laws then the Law of Moses.

I think many are different but let's start with a managable amount.
"Love your enemies"
"And when you stand praying , forgive if you have anything against anyone so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses"

Where are these two laws found in the LOM?

[Guest]

It is a strange and confusing thing to hear Christians maintain that the Law of Moses is still applicable as a rule of life for the Christian, or indeed, anyone since the reign of Messiah began.

Those who insist the Law of Moses has not passed away, do not, as far as I can tell, adhere to all of it, nor do they even pretend to do so. They seem to satisfy themselves by selectively keeping parts of it, while maintaining that "not a jot or tittle" has passed away - except the "ceremonial" or "legal" parts, whatever they are. This division of the Law into different headings was unknown to any New Testament writer. If you disagree, please show me where it was done. Where is there any distinction made in the New Testament as to which parts are still in effect and which parts are not?

It seems hopeless to me to neatly divide the law into legal, ceremonial, and moral parts. Consider the following; please read through and try to determine in your mind what is ceremonial or legal, and thus not binding upon the Christian, and what is moral:

Leviticus 19
1. And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2. “Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.
3. ‘Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
4. ‘Do not turn to idols, nor make for yourselves molded gods: I am the LORD your God.
5. ‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will. 6. It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and on the next day. And if any remains until the third day, it shall be burned in the fire. 7. And if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination. It shall not be accepted. 8. Therefore everyone who eats it shall bear his iniquity, because he has profaned the hallowed offering of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from his people.
9. ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10. And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11. ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
13. ‘You shall not cheat your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of him who is hired shall not remain with you all night until morning. 14. You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the LORD.
15. ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. 16. You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.
17. ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
19. ‘You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.

Of particular interest are the parts I have bolded.

Is it immoral to pay someone who works for you on a weekly basis? The contractor who does a job for you that takes three days, must he be paid a portion at the end of each day? The law said so, right in the middle of what would seem to be a series of moral commands. But you say it is ceremonial? What kind of ceremony would this be? And if you say it is a legal requirement, where is this "jot or tittle" overturned if the Law still stands? Which category of law does it fit into? And do you keep this particular law?

And what of planting mixed seed in a field? Did I sin when I planted my lawn? As is commonly done, I planted a mix of three different types of grass. You say this is trivial and not what the law was about? What about the pasture our neighbor planted behind us? He planted several different kinds of seed. Did he sin?

And what of our clothes? Do we sin when we wear a garment of polyester and cotton or wool? and what category of law do you place this command in, and on what basis? Because you can see no reason to keep it?

If we claim the Law of Moses is still in effect, and then we try to divide up the Law into categories and justify which parts are to be kept and excuse ourselves from the other parts we wade into a quagmire.

As Steve7150 showed, we have no need of the Law of Moses to show us how to follow Jesus. He commissioned His Church to teach His disciples to obey His Commandments, not those of Moses.

dmatic, I must say I found your attempt to explain why the Mosaic dietary laws are still binding to be improbable and very unconvincing.

Hoping for some answers.

[Guest]

Thank you Homer. Maybe you have confused me with some other that you are conversing with about the Law of God. You wrote:

It seems hopeless to me to neatly divide the law into legal, ceremonial, and moral parts. Consider the following; please read through and try to determine in your mind what is ceremonial or legal, and thus not binding upon the Christian, and what is moral:

I don't think that I do this, though i have tried to talk with those who seem to hold to the view you describe. It does seem hopeless to divide the Law into groupings that are not defined in scripture so as to try to keep some but not the others. I'm sorry that my discussion was not convincing for you, concerning the instructions God has given for us as to what His people should and should not "eat". My point was that God's laws have not changed, since Noah. Initially, He did not give animals to be eaten by His people in the garden, however. But, since sin came, maybe that has something to do with it. I believe that in the future we won't be eating animals either in His kingdom.

Anyway, you also wrote:

Is it immoral to pay someone who works for you on a weekly basis? The contractor who does a job for you that takes three days, must he be paid a portion at the end of each day? The law said so, right in the middle of what would seem to be a series of moral commands. But you say it is ceremonial? What kind of ceremony would this be? And if you say it is a legal requirement, where is this "jot or tittle" overturned if the Law still stands? Which category of law does it fit into? And do you keep this particular law?

this was in response to God's instructions that you emboldened. I believe that we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Certainly, this includes His revelations to Moses don't you think? Well, apparently, you do not so think, and that is why we are having this discussion . First of all, I do not say "it is ceremonial". I say that we should keep God's commandments. Yes, I try to keep this particular law.

I am a painter, and occasionally, I hire help. when I do so, I usually pay them that same evening. I'm not sure why God instructs this, except that we do not know what tomorrow may bring. Maybe the guy needs the money right now to pay for something that his family needs. Maybe I would die in the night, and who would know how much I owed him? There is, after all, enough evil in the day to deal with, rather than assuming that tomorrow will be the same as today. When a man works hard, it is good to allow him to have the rewards of that labor when he has given it.

I think that it is good, if you hire a contractor to do a job, that you pay him for the work he has done, but you may agree to pay him at the end of the job, but he may appreciate your obedience to God, and do even better work for you. Besides, he may have incurred expenses too, that need to be paid, and by paying as you go, he is freed up to pay his providers too. Whatever God says, I think, is good for us to follow. even IF we don't understand the reason for His instruction.

Hope that helps.

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Homer wrote:

And what of planting mixed seed in a field? Did I sin when I planted my lawn? As is commonly done, I planted a mix of three different types of grass. You say this is trivial and not what the law was about? What about the pasture our neighbor planted behind us? He planted several different kinds of seed. Did he sin?

No, I don't say this is trivial. Again, maybe you have me mixed up with another. I'm not sure that ones lawn is considered a "field", but I'll try to look that up. Interesting. As for the hybrid fields of corn etc. that are planted in fields to be harvested and eaten, yes, I think it an abomination. This practice is "common" but is not right. I've heard that the "seed" from these hybidized plantings does not yield a crop the next year if planted, so it seems to me that there is probably something missing in the product that we may live to regret. Anyway, even if I don't understand why God gave this non-trivial command, I still recommend that we keep it. the same with seventh-year land sabbaths! It is not a "common" practice to obey God in this either, but that fact should not deter the one who desires to love God by keeping His commandments!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Further, Homer wrote:

And what of our clothes? Do we sin when we wear a garment of polyester and cotton or wool? and what category of law do you place this command in, and on what basis? Because you can see no reason to keep it?

It would be good to know what the command of God was...before you begin to declare sin for not keeping your "version" of it. The command is not to wear garments of mixed linen and wool. And yes, i believe it to be sin to do so, when God declares His instruction here. Sin is defined in the New testament as transgressing God's commandments.

I can see a reason to keep it. But even if I couldn't, I still think, as I've mentioned previously, that I should keep it even if i don't understand the reason. This shows that I simply trust God. Have you ever raised a child who only obeyed those commands that he understood the reason for, or that he/she agreed with? Sometimes, a parent may give a child a command, just to see his/her heart attitude, so that he/she may deal with that.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Actually, Homer, the following is a false statement:

He commissioned His Church to teach His disciples to obey His Commandments, not those of Moses.

Because He did teach us to keep the Laws of Moses and to teach them to every nation!

peace, dmatic