The Logical Fallacy of Christian Universalism

[mattrose]

Please explain this so called "pain of rejection" here. So every time someone sins or ignores God the Father, then God the Father is subject to "pain" billions of times? Please be specific. Why would God suffer so called "rejection" when God is Perfect and nothing can be added or taken away from God. What is this so called feeling of "rejection" that an omniscient, immutable Infinite Creator experiences? How can God the Father "suffer" or experience "pain?" Please be specific.

You don't know what the pain of rejection is like?

When you say 'nothing can be added or taken away from God' you seem to be over-inflating the doctrine of God's immutability. The idea that God never changes pertains to God's character. He changes in many ways other than His character. You also over-inflate omniscience, in my opinion. I'd imagine you feel God is impassible because you feel God couldn't get emotional about things that God knows are going to happen anyways. I even doubt that premise (even Jesus cried over the death of Lazarus), but I think it is based on philosophical concepts of God existing outside of time to begin with.

I believe that God can have mental attitudes which we describe as "emotions" but they are NOT the same as human emotions which are manifested physically in our brains. Our grief that we experience is often one of "regret."

I have no doubt that the fallen state of our emotions renders them distinct from God's perfect emotions.

Why would a sovereign omnipotent omniscient immutable God have any "regrets?" This part of grief makes absolutely no sense to me. Please explain God's grief or so called "loss" in this context.

Perhaps your understanding of those 4 or 5 words are confused and that is why it makes no sense to you.

The majority of the ways in which we describe God's actions (such as hands, eyes of the Lord, God spoke, etc.) are indeed anthropomorphic. If the prophets did this regularly there is no reason to believe they were not being anthropomorphic when they used a word in Hebrew that was dynamically equivalent to "repented." God does NOT need to repent.. this stands opposed to basic concepts of omniscience and immutability.

It stands opposed to YOUR concepts of omniscience and immutability.

I think there is a dynamic of pleased and displeased (described as disappointed because God knows that it is not optimal for us).... but that is quite different from "hurt" or feelings of "loss."

That's just playing with words in my opinion. If someone is pleased or displeased they are experiencing emotion. God's experiences emotion perfectly.

There is a difference, however, between God knowing our free will choices and knowing that they are not optimal for us, and in this sense being described as "disappointed" or "displeased" verses God the Father suffering or experiencing transcendent tragedies or experiencing "pain" or "loss" or somehow "hurt." How do you hurt a Perfect Infinite Creator? You have not addressed this. How does a Perfect Infinite and Sovereign Creator experience the so called "pain of rejection?" Please be specific.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Actually, I have addressed it. I have a different understanding of words such as immutable, impassible, omniscient, and emotion than you do. Of course, I think I understand these words correctly (as I'm sure you do). Given my understanding of these words, my position makes good sense. Given your understanding of these words, yours probably does.

In my view, it makes sense b/c God has an immutable character of perfect love. In His perfect love, He created people and sacrificially subjected Himself to genuinely work with and through these free creatures. This voluntary subjection includes working in time (the future does not yet exist). God, in partnering with these people, experiences moments of being pleased and displeased. Creating free people includes risk. Sometimes these risks prove worthwhile and cause joy in heaven. Sometimes they do not work out well and cause sorrow. God's character of perfect love continues on perfectly, but His activity changes frequently, always on a quest to welcome more of His creatures into His circle of love.

[steve7150]

You are talking about salvation in the afterlife
and it would seem to me like an obvious sort of heresy to ADD fire to the Holy Cross of Jesus Christ and His Perfect
Sacrifice.

Pruning and chastisement is NEVER about salvation. Graphing branches is different from pruning (and graphing IS
about "who" is being saved....but it still comes down to our faith in Jesus' Sacrifice on the Cross).








If postmortem salvation is possible then the "fire" is symbolic and not meant to add to Jesus sacrifice. There have been long threads on this topic here and i imagine that some take offense at this thought so i'm not interested in rehashing it again.

[Paidion]

Why would a believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit ever ADD fire to the Cross of Jesus?

It's not that believers add fire to the cross of Jesus. Rather it is Jesus who adds fire to believers (as well as non-believers):

For everyone will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49)

[jriccitelli]

Only the Holy Spirit and Faith produce the righteousness that can withstand the fire, the fire does not produce the righteousness, the fire burns everything that is ‘not’ righteous.
The men who carried in Daniel and his friends were ‘burned’, yet the three were ‘not touched’ by the flames. The fire does not ‘improve’ anyone, it is symbolic of cleansing what ‘is pure’, and proving what ‘is pure’.
“Everything that can stand the fire, you shall pass through the fire, and it shall be clean” (Numbers 31:23)
Daniel 12:10-11 says "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days...
None of the wicked will understand, and as it says a few verses earlier only those written in the book are rescued;
"And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting LIFE, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt" (Dan.12:1-2)
Johns Revelation repeats the vision and wraps it all up with the LOF;
“And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev 20)
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.… (Matt 7).

‘Nebuchadnezzar’ threw them into a fire.

‘God’ is not the one throwing the righteous into fires.

[john6809]

jriccitelli wrote,

The fire does not ‘improve’ anyone, it is symbolic of cleansing what ‘is pure’, and proving what ‘is pure’.

You have written in other threads that fire is not for refining, but for destroying. The above quote seems to contradict that assertion. Also, if something is already pure, how can it be further refined?

What is your understanding of Zech. 13:8 - 9?

8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

It sounds to me like fire can represent refining that which has not yet been purified. The result of this purification is that God will declare them, His people.

[Paidion]

Some people understand only enough of a truth to reject it. (The Laird's Inheritance ch. 18, p. 135)

[jriccitelli]

“No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead” (Jesus to the Pharisees) Luke 16.

Paidion, what part of my post do you not agree with, and what ‘truth’ am I rejecting?

[jriccitelli]

It sounds to me like fire can represent refining that which has not yet been purified.
The result of this purification is that God will declare them, His people. (John)

John, the fire refines but refining does not change the object, the ‘them’ (from above in Zech.13) ‘are’ His people. Fire does not cause them to become Gods people, they ‘become’ His people through faith. They went through the fire ‘because they were’ his people (believers).
Maybe its because I took metallurgy once because I was interested in welding and building cars, but it seems some people do not know that fire does not change the lead, rocks or whatever into gold.

Unless you are Rumpelstiltskin you can’t change anything into gold without an atomic process that no one on earth is able or willing to attempt, so I do not think any ancient or modern bible reader should think metal or anything of any sort is going to change into gold without moving protons out of their nucleus.

The verse in Numbers relates that the people even then knew you put the metals into the fire to purify, meaning to burn off impurities, not turn something that is not into something else.

What is your take on the two thirds that got cut off and perished? (Zech 13)
What is your take on Zechariah 11 (below) ?
"So I pastured the flock [doomed] to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. 8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD"

(Note also: What was the continued chant of the false prophets throughout the Prophetic books?)

[Paidion]

John, the fire refines but refining does not change the object...

It doesn't? Isn't that what "refining" means? If the "object" (the rough ore) were not changed, then there would be no purpose in the refining process. I will share with you a short article which I wrote some time ago:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

There are many killers here on earth who may threaten us with death. Often these people carry our their threats. Many early Christians were put to death by burning them at stake, or by throwing them to the lions, or subjecting them to gladiators. In the middle ages, even the religious leaders put many to death among those who disagreed with them.

When “the body” is killed, the person is gone, seemingly never to return again. But our Lord assures his listeners that these murdered persons are not gone forever! As stated three times in John 6, He will raise them up again at the last day. So their very essence, their “soul” is not permanently wiped out by death. They cannot “kill the soul”.

Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is important to recognize that some scriptures use “destroy” in a different way from that which the modern person thinks of it. We think of destruction as annihilation, or we think of it as smashing something in such a way that it is rendered useless. It's original form has been altered. Sometimes “destroy” is used in the New Testament in the sense of refining something, so that the original form is altered to a purified form. Consider the following passage from I Peter 1:3-6 ESV and verse 7, another translation:


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials...

Verse 7
... in order that the proving of your faith, much more valuable than gold that is being destroyed through fire and being proved , may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Notice it is the proving of your faith which is much more valuable than the proving of gold. Peter speaks of “gold that is being destroyed through fire”. Now we know that gold is not annihilated or even destroyed in the sense of being rendered useless (such as a toy that is destroyed by smashing it). Rather the original form of the gold, the ore, is destroyed and the impurities removed so that after the refining process is complete, only the pure gold remains.

So it is with the proving of our faith through various trials. We are refined, impurities removed until we come forth as “pure gold”.

So fear God who is able to destroy a person's original character in Gehenna, by refining that character, and thus altering it. Why should we fear God lest we are required to be so refined? Because it is a very painful process ---- much better that we should coöperate with the enabling grace of God for purification now, so that we won't have to undergo that severe process. Even now, we may have to endure hardships which will help us to submit to present purification as the text indicates.

[Breckmin]

You don't know what the pain of rejection is like?

When I was a small child I experienced rejection from other kids, other siblings and even my earthly father
who adopted me...(never my mother)..but that was when I was young and learning. Now, when I experience
someone "rejecting me" there is absolutely NO pain...because I know that I will not be rejected in heaven.
If I am keeping my eyes on Jesus then I know that Jesus is NOT rejecting me. What else could I want? When
my children were toddlers...they used to sometimes "reject me" out of their little independent natures... I
smiled and thought it was cute. I knew they were little sinners as children growing up... as a parent I did
not take their "rejection" personally. They are "owned" by God and NOT me. I give these "problems" over
to God Whom I believe has no problems but is in perfect control of the situation. Sometimes I even say
that it is "God's business" what happens and not mine. God holds the future...if you know that someday
you will be restored then there is no "pain of rejection" in my personal experience. If all of my children
rejected me...but I knew perfectly at that moment that someday we would all be restored and it would
even be BETTER because of the type of relationship that comes through forgiveness and restoration, then
why would it be painful to me? As a fellow sinner, however, it IS sad for me to see my children suffer
consequences for things i have already struggled through because I know the pain of it. I do NOT think
it will be painful for me someday when I am in a glorified body in heaven...and that is very important
to this discussion.

When you say 'nothing can be added or taken away from God' you seem to be over-inflating the doctrine of God's immutability. The idea that God never changes pertains to God's character. He changes in many ways other than His character.

What are these "many other ways" that God the Father changes? Please be specific.

You also over-inflate omniscience, in my opinion. I'd imagine you feel God is impassible because you feel God couldn't get emotional about things that God knows are going to happen anyways. I even doubt that premise (even Jesus cried over the death of Lazarus), but I think it is based on philosophical concepts of God existing outside of time to begin with.

As a side matter of clarification I do not believe that "God exists outside of time." A more accurate way to describe
omni-temporal (rather than atemporal) is to say omni-time or "beyond the limitations of time and space." If time
is infinite, then it can be part of God's infinite domain that we get created into (to experience duration as finite
created beings who move). As far as Jesus crying over Lazarus, "Do you believe that Jesus cries in His Glorified Body?"

I have no doubt that the fallen state of our emotions renders them distinct from God's perfect emotions.

Does God's perfect emotions contain "regret?" Is God the Father a "regretful" God? Is God the Father a God Who
experiences "loss?" Is this an emotional injury to God? Is it an emotional problem for God? Please be specific.

prior post:

Why would a sovereign omnipotent omniscient immutable God have any "regrets?" This part of grief makes absolutely no sense to me. Please explain God's grief or so called "loss" in this context.

Perhaps your understanding of those 4 or 5 words are confused and that is why it makes no sense to you.

How is my understanding of the word "sovereign" or any of the other words different from yours? Is this loss an injury to God?

The majority of the ways in which we describe God's actions (such as hands, eyes of the Lord, God spoke, etc.) are indeed anthropomorphic. If the prophets did this regularly there is no reason to believe they were not being anthropomorphic when they used a word in Hebrew that was dynamically equivalent to "repented." God does NOT need to repent.. this stands opposed to basic concepts of omniscience and immutability.

It stands opposed to YOUR concepts of omniscience and immutability.

How are your concepts of omniscience and immutability specifically different from mine? Also (because of your
response here), are you saying that God "repented" in some way?

I think there is a dynamic of pleased and displeased (described as disappointed because God knows that it is not optimal for us).... but that is quite different from "hurt" or feelings of "loss."

That's just playing with words in my opinion. If someone is pleased or displeased they are experiencing emotion. God's experiences emotion perfectly.

Can you be displeased and NOT experience loss? Can you be displeased and not experience "regret?" I say YES.

There is a difference, however, between God knowing our free will choices and knowing that they are not optimal for us, and in this sense being described as "disappointed" or "displeased" verses God the Father suffering or experiencing transcendent tragedies or experiencing "pain" or "loss" or somehow "hurt." How do you hurt a Perfect Infinite Creator? You have not addressed this. How does a Perfect Infinite and Sovereign Creator experience the so called "pain of rejection?" Please be specific. This makes absolutely no sense.

Actually, I have addressed it.

I know that you may believe that you have addressed it, but please allow me to make it easy for you:

I know I have asked these same questions all through this post...but until you answer these questions you
will really not have addressed it:

1. Does God experience transcendent tragedies? are these a problem for God?
2. Does God experience pain, loss or hurt? are these emotional injuries to God?
3. If they are emotional injuries to God, THEN are they in anyway problems for God?
4. Is Jesus in His glorified body experiencing either "hurt" "loss" "emotional pain" or "sadness"
or "sorrow" now that He is in His glorified body watching over us here on earth?
5. Why is it hurtful to God if God already knows He is going to make it right in the end? Please be specific.

I have a different understanding of words such as immutable, impassible, omniscient, and emotion than you do.

I don't use impassible... I've never liked the word in this context. How is your understanding of immutable and omniscience specifically different than mine in relation to this subject?

Given my understanding of these words, my position makes good sense.

I'm asking a lot of questions here before I come to a 'final' conclusion of whether or not this is really bad theology.
Please understand that I am trying to understand your position. Years ago, I went through a discussion with some
brothers at our church on whether or not "God 'needs' anything" or somehow "needs us." This is very reminiscent
of that discussion. How do you reconcile "loss" "tragedy from God's perspective" or "God being hurt" with a Perfect
Creator Who has no problems? Does your concept of God include God having any problems? (such as loss, hurt,
emotional injury, sorrow, regret, pain of rejections?).

In my view, it makes sense b/c God has an immutable character of perfect love.

Does perfect love mean "it's a problem for you" if someone rejects you?

In His perfect love, He created people and sacrificially subjected Himself to genuinely work with and through these free creatures.

Agreed. But are you implying that God the Father somehow makes Himself "vulnerable?" (as in emotionally vulnerable to be hurt or experience the pain of rejection?) Why can't God work through people "genuinely" and experience the
joy of some and give justice to others without suffering emotional pain?

This voluntary subjection includes working in time (the future does not yet exist).

Does God perfectly "know" this future?

God, in partnering with these people, experiences moments of being pleased and displeased.

Does being displeased really cause God the Father emotion "pain?"

Creating free people includes risk. Sometimes these risks prove worthwhile and cause joy in heaven.

So now we add "risk" to the already loss, sadness, hurt, pain of rejection, etc. How does a sovereign Creator take risks?

Sometimes they do not work out well and cause sorrow.

Is God the Father in control of causing His Own "sorrow"? Or allowing His Own sorrow? Is it an injury to Him?
Is it a problem for Him? Is it a risk for Him?

God's character of perfect love continues on perfectly, but His activity changes frequently, always on a quest to welcome more of His creatures into His circle of love.

What "activities" are you referring to here that somehow "change frequently?" Do these activities make God somehow change? Or is God working through people and people are the ones who are changing?