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_Sean
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Re: Please read this (free online) book!

Post by _Sean » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:02 am

Rick_C wrote:As I mentioned before, I've seen many internet discussion/debates on this topic. And I don't mean any offense at all, but, this thread is just about the most confusing I've EVER seen!!! Well, um, actually it is!

I sincerely hope you (all) have time to read the book!
I really do think it will help y'all clear things up, at least some! :wink:
Rick
I don't mean this the wrong way, but I don't really want to read another book about someone's opinion on this complex subject. (I've still got books I want to read and have not found time to yet) Just come out and tell us what he said. :)

I do agree that the subject is confusing and I struggled with this topic for years. It's confusing because it (our relationship to the law) encomapses all that it means to be a Christian. Put simply, my Lord is Christ and my obedience is to Him and His commands.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:38 am

Sean,

The book is an excellent work of scholarship.
(I was just just sharing it, that's all).
So there it is, if anyone wants it....

Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

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_Allyn
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Re: Please read this (free online) book!

Post by _Allyn » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:26 am

Sean wrote:
Rick_C wrote:As I mentioned before, I've seen many internet discussion/debates on this topic. And I don't mean any offense at all, but, this thread is just about the most confusing I've EVER seen!!! Well, um, actually it is!

I sincerely hope you (all) have time to read the book!
I really do think it will help y'all clear things up, at least some! :wink:
Rick
I don't mean this the wrong way, but I don't really want to read another book about someone's opinion. Just come out and tell us what he said. :)

I do agree that the subject is confusing and I struggled with this topic for years. It's confusing because it (our relationship to the law) encomapses all that it means to be a Christian. Put simply, my Lord is Christ and my obedience is to Him and His commands.
I feel your pain, Sean but I don't understand the confusion. You said:
Put simply, my Lord is Christ and my obedience is to Him and His commands.
But yet we cannot can we? So what provision Has God made for us? Is it to keep trying and soon come to perfection in the Law by our efforts or is it to submit to His will that all believe upon His Son and be saved? Does God want us to obey the Law, which simply shows us our sin since none are capable of perfection in the Law, or does God call us righteous because of His Son? His command is to love one another.
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_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:27 am

Rick_C wrote:Sean,

The book is an excellent work of scholarship.
(I was just just sharing it, that's all).
So there it is, if anyone wants it....

Rick
Well Jeez, I didn't realize you could read it online (I thought you had to buy it). I might just find time to read it after all. :D

Thanks for the link!
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:06 am

I had pondered this command for many years, until just this morning, i believe that God revealed to me, part of His meaning! my wife and I raise Foundation-Bred American Quarter Horses, and I really didn't know what God wanted me to do with the babies that were males, that had broken the womb. What was I to do with these stud-colts that were the first-born babies of their mothers? Was I to redeem them with a lamb, or should I "break their necks?"

I couldn't discern how to obey God in this matter for the longest time. The first baby we had from a new mare that was a male, I just gave away! Not knowing how to redeem it? Just this morning, I was thinking about the alternative and decided to look up the word translated into "break its neck". I believe that God wants these first-borns to be "broken" at the neck, meaning they should undergo training....they should learn to "give thier necks" to yield to the will of a trainer> it makes a lot of sense to me, now. God wants the characters of these first-born's changed from wild to "disciplined". He doesn't want me to kill them!

I don't think.

Just like me. I am a first-born male, that was a "wild ass" of a donkey type in my "old days". He is training me now. I hope to be useful to Him someday. thank you for giving me the opprotunity to discuss these things here with you....

Peace, dmatic
Wow, dmatic, God gave you a spiritual application for a very clear and precise law. How convenient; I'm sure that keeps you out of trouble with the SPCA. And tell me, the rest of the horses - do you just let them run wild? How are these first-born going to be any different?
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_Sean
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Re: Please read this (free online) book!

Post by _Sean » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:21 am

Allyn wrote:
I feel your pain, Sean but I don't understand the confusion. You said:
Put simply, my Lord is Christ and my obedience is to Him and His commands.
But yet we cannot can we? So what provision Has God made for us? Is it to keep trying and soon come to perfection in the Law by our efforts or is it to submit to His will that all believe upon His Son and be saved? Does God want us to obey the Law, which simply shows us our sin since none are capable of perfection in the Law, or does God call us righteous because of His Son? His command is to love one another.
What I meant was my obedience lies with my Lord Jesus and His commands and not the law of Moses. As to everything else you said, I agree.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:58 am

Rick_C wrote:Sean,

The book is an excellent work of scholarship.
(I was just just sharing it, that's all).
So there it is, if anyone wants it....

Rick
I read the whole thing!

My comment about it, to put it as kindly as I can...it's not good at all. I would rate it like I would a book on Dispensationalism. An ideology with proof-texting galore. (Yes, I looked most of them up)

Here is an example:
Delivered From The Bondage of The Law


One of the most misunderstood texts in Paul's writing is Romans 7:1-14 where he speaks of being delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Is Paul against the Law of God? He answers that in Romans 7:7 where he says, God forbid! and spends the next seven verses explaining how great and spiritual the Law is and what good things it has done for him. Brad Young reminds us that Paul is using a well known concept in Jewish law and is actually referring to the death of the flesh and not the death of God's Law. To illustrate his point, Paul uses an analogy of the dead husband to show that when an individual dies, he is free from all laws relating to that marriage. Young concludes, "It is imperative to recognize that the saying,'when a person dies he is free from the law and the commandments,' was a well-known concept in halachah [law], which probably was almost proverbial in ancient Jewish thought" [Bab. Niddah 61b and parallels]. Note that Paul mentioned he was writing to those who knew the Law [Romans 7: 1], showing that the Jews in the congregation of Rome were familiar with such an illustration.

Paul's emphasis points out that when a person is living in sin, his flesh is in bondage to the law against that sin until death when he is freed from that law. This is a common Jewish phrase as seen in the words of Rabbi Simeon ben Pazzi when he dies, he is freed, speaking of man's flesh being released from the evil inclination [Ruth Rabbah 4:14, M. Lerner, pp. 78-80].

... The point of Romans 7 is the individual's death to sinful flesh and not to the Law of God.
Now if we read this carefully, without bringing any presuppositions to the text, what do we learn:

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.


The book quotes a great text but then asks a question that's not part of this verse's point, namely "Is Paul against the Law of God?"

They ignore Paul's actual words, which are very helpful. Paul says the Law is good but we are bad! We are bad because we fail keep the law.
Now that we've answered a question the text didn't raise (yet), let's see what it does say. It says that those who know the law but are now saved have died to the law and are now married to Christ resulting in bearing fruit to God, since while in the flesh our passions aroused by the law caused us to bear fruit to death. But now, being delivered from the law, having died to the law the bound us we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the "old" way of the letter.

Paul then goes on to raise and answer objections like the one brought up in the book that I quoted above. The book makes it sound as if Paul is refuting his own statement! Hugh?

The book is full of outlandish claims like Paul kept the law and Jews should always keep the law.

Gal 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
Gal 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."


You mean Peter didn't live like a Jew but a Gentile? Oh my! And Peter ate what Gentiles ate! Oh no! Why else would Peter be ashamed when those from James came? Paul said that Peter was not acting in line with the truth of the Gospel! This is the context of Galatians, what role the law plays in the life of the Christian, both Jew and Gentile. I don't see how Paul could be understood to mean anything else that what he said when he stated Peter was to be blamed. Peter was fine with living like a Gentile until people from James showed up. Then Peter changed his behavior to be more "Jewish like". This made him a hypocrite. Paul didn't condemn him for living like a Gentile, but for causing other Jews besides himself to draw back and make Gentiles feel like they have to live like Jews (i.e. keep dietary laws). Maybe I'm wrong, but can anyone offer a better solution for Galatians 2?
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:47 pm

Hello Sean,

Personally, I liked what parts of the book I've read. I'm still digesting the material and have taken an hour or so to study certain sections more in-depth. You say the whole book is proof-texting and taking Paul out of context, and so on. I disagree.

However, I can't comment on what you (and also Homer and others) have posted because I honestly think you are 'missing' the issues; not understanding what they really were in NT times, as well as what the issues are for us today.

I don't mean anything personal about this.

Ever since I posted to this thread I've felt "We aren't on the same page!" I could potentially quote and reply but don't think it wouldn't help anything or do any good.
Sometimes this happens...and there's not much we can do but agree to disagree.

I intend to read all of Moseley's book in detail, taking more notes. Thus far, though I probably don't agree with him on other things like eschatology; I've enjoyed this book so much that I would possibly use it as a study guide to teach a class if I were in a teaching position: I like it that much.

Anyway.
Maybe the book will help you, myself, and some of the other posters to define our beliefs better. That's why I offered it....

Take care and I think I'm done with the thread, all things considered.
Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:25 pm

P.S. I have a couple comments (not replies).

1. What Moseley writes seems to 'gel really well' with the thought of N.T. Wright regarding Paul and related New Perspective paradigms. (Btw, I'm much more in line with Wright than traditional Protestant views). I would tend to think a vast majority of 'born-again evangelicals' share the traditional Protestant views.

2. Romans 7, to me, is something like a 'key' to the whole book. And Arminius and Wesley 'had it right' on this chapter, imo. I'd say, maybe, 90% of 'born-again evangelical' Christians don't agree with either of these men on this, going by what I have heard in person and online.

Taking numbers 1 & 2, above, and adding in some 'word of faith' teaching---which is all too prevelant today; what you have is one mixed up situation! A situation that, sadly, is really hard to get away from: For me, anyway.

I've tried to discuss these issues (peacefully) with other Christians locally and it not only upset them; they didn't know what I was talking about! so I dropped it. And I can't find a 'born-again evangelical' church in my area that doesn't teach this stuff pretty strongly; not among the charismatic churches, that would be (I'm charismatic). But the Lord will lead me to some believers for in-person fellowship, I'm sure: I'm praying about it.

Sorry about getting a tad off topic.
I'm done.
Thanks.
Rick
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_Allyn
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Re: Please read this (free online) book!

Post by _Allyn » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:11 pm

Sean wrote:
Allyn wrote:
I feel your pain, Sean but I don't understand the confusion. You said:
Put simply, my Lord is Christ and my obedience is to Him and His commands.
But yet we cannot can we? So what provision Has God made for us? Is it to keep trying and soon come to perfection in the Law by our efforts or is it to submit to His will that all believe upon His Son and be saved? Does God want us to obey the Law, which simply shows us our sin since none are capable of perfection in the Law, or does God call us righteous because of His Son? His command is to love one another.
What I meant was my obedience lies with my Lord Jesus and His commands and not the law of Moses. As to everything else you said, I agree.
I was actually agreeing with you in my round about way. I have read enough of your posts to know that you are a law abider in Christ. Anything else is lawlessness.
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