what dispensationalism has wrought

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:43 am

2 Thes 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself

It's interesting this term "unless the falling away comes first" sounds similar to Rev 20.7 "Now when the thousand years have expired Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations."
Ammillenniamists believe both happen in the church age not in a separate 1000 yr period. Yet simultaneoulsly the gospel is being preached now throughout the world "making disciples of the nations" Matt 28.
The reason is because the falling away from Satan's deception seems to be happening in the developed nations as "human reasoning" becomes the new god.
Interestingly Jesus opened the eyes of understanding of the OT passages to the apostles (Luke 24.45) and Peter relayed what he knew to Paul.
Yet when both talk about the second coming neither mentions a future millenneum, only about a burning up of the earth and the wicked and a new heavens and new earth.

Post by **_Ely** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:54 am

Dispensationalists usually take this passage to mean a future rebuilt temple that the Antichrist sits in during the tribulation. So if that were true, the rapture could not take place until after the "man of sin" is revealed, placing the rapture either in or after the tribulation, not before it.

As a post-tribber, I agree with your reasoning here. But you should know that pre-tribbers have a quite ingenious way of getting out of this problem. They say that the apostasy is the rapture!

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:49 am

Ely, you will need to explain that to me. The apostasy is the rapture? How do they relate the two words to mean one event?

Post by **_Ely** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:08 am

Ely, you will need to explain that to me. The apostasy is the rapture? How do they relate the two words to mean one event?

Al, I'm not 100% clear on the reasoning, but it's got something to do with the idea that "apostasy" can mean "departure". Have a read of this article from Thomas Ice. http://www.raptureready.com/featured/Th ... ns2_3.html

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:21 am

I'll read it Ely - Allyn

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:33 am

Someone may want to study on this a little:

The Bible indicates that there will be two kingdoms on earth in the future, one following the other. The first kingdom will last 1,000 years and is therefore referred to as the “Millennial Kingdom” (from mil, one thousand, and annus, year). The second kingdom is referred to by the author as the “Everlasting Kingdom.”

The Millennial and Eternal Kingdoms

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=313

More about the Christians hope:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... ew_topic=6

Post by **_JD** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:03 am

Steve,

You once said something on your radio show that was strange to me at the time. You said eschatology was one of your least favorite subjects, or something like that.

I think these endless exchanges where we all talk past one another has driven me to the same place.

JD

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:57 am

One thing for sure JD, there are some things to look at, but I for one want to make sure I am believing what God wants to convey, not just because of what the majority believes or how how long they have done so.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:33 pm

So do you believe in the thousand year millenneum after Christ returns?

Yes.

The Bible indicates that there will be two kingdoms on earth in the future, one following the other. The first kingdom will last 1,000 years and is therefore referred to as the “Millennial Kingdom” (from mil, one thousand, and annus, year). The second kingdom is referred to by the author as the “Everlasting Kingdom.”

As I see it, they are not TWO kingdoms. There is only one Kingdom of God. It is here now. It is an evelasting kingdom NOW. The Millenium is the fully developed stage of the Kingdom in the sense that its subjects will have been perfected (completed). The Kingdom will still be here on earth during the millenium. Even the stage to follow is not the permanent stage. For, after ages of ages there will be a much greater fullness, when "all things have been put under His (Christ's) feet", and He will deliver the Kingdom to the Father that God may be "all in all".

Post by **_Sean** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:30 pm

Jesusfollower wrote:One thing for sure JD, there are some things to look at, but I for one want to make sure I am believing what God wants to convey, not just because of what the majority believes or how how long they have done so.

I think the point is that you never seem to interact with any points that are made. You just quote someone else's work as if it's authoritative. I've actually bothered to read much of the links you posted but they are full of presupposition and assumption.

Unless you are the author of the web site you keep quoting it might do you some good to think out your own answers than just to see what answer the web site you link to comes up with.

Another option is to do exactly what you are doing, Just listen to Steve's lectures and they will answer your questions. I mean, every time you post I could just put a link to Steve's lectures. Isn't this suppose to be a dialogue?

An example of this is that you quoted something that spoke of the imminent return taught in the NT. I commented about the fact that none of the citiations you made prove an imminent return of Christ, instead of interacting, you just move on to another point. I guess you concede that there is not proof of an imminent return of Christ then?

You then make no comment to the fact that Paul in 1 Thes 2 says the rapture can't happen until the falling away occurs first. If, (as it has just been pointed out) you say apostasy actually means the rapture then Paul is saying the rapture can't happen until the rapture happends first. That makes no sense at all.

Then, in one of your last links a "7 year tribulation" is mentioned. There is no where in all of the bible that mentions a 7 year tribulation. So again, we are reading what we want to see in the text.

Here is a quote from the web site you linked to:

believers who survive the Tribulation and are allowed to enter the kingdom because they are judged righteous. The last “group” will enter the kingdom as mortals and will, therefore, eventually die. Furthermore, they will have children who, like all mortals, will be subject to death.

Survive the "tribulation"?

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Paul wrote 2 Thes to the church, he told them they would not see relief until the day Jesus comes and they (the church) are glorified (this is the rapture 1 Cor 15) which is also the day the unbelievers are destroyed with "eternal destruction" and shut out of the presence of the lord. To say some people escape this is unbelieveable to me, since the intent is to remove them, not dwell with them for 1000 years.

So, in short, "believers who survive the tribulation" are called church members. Because if you believe, you become a part of Jesus body, the church. If you didn't, you wouldn't be saved because there is no other way to be saved.