KJV "given by God"?

[Paidion]

Steve, maybe you could ask the person whether he is using the original 1611 King James Version that God gave, or whether he is using a modernized version changed by man.
You could show him the following page from the original, and suggest that if he's not using the original King James he might be just as misled as the rest of us who use other translations.

[steve]

Good point, Paidion!

[Candlepower]

Wow! The font in my KJV looks way uninspired. And whole lot of my esses are badly corrupted. Something else I noted: this proves the chapter divisions were divinely placed.

[mkprr]

Although not a KJV only kind of guy I always grew up reading the KJV, and for me I find reading the KJV to be similar to the act of kneeling for prayer. I don't think kneeling is necessary, and it can sometimes be impractical, but I do it because for me it helps shift my mind to sacred things. The KJV does the same sort of thing for me. For someone not raised reading it however I assume it could be distracting.


Lately though I have been speed reading a few chapters at a time in the NIV because it is so easy to read, then going to biblecc.com to compare translations on sections that stand out. I've heard Steve say some negative things about the NIV on the radio though. What in particular should I be careful with when reading it?

Also someone recently recommended to me Oxford's New Revised Standard Version. Is there anyone here (other than Steve's kjv only friend ) who has any feedback on this version?

[steve]

I also like the KJV, though I use the NKJV most of the time these days. I know what you mean about it being similar to kneeling. It carries something of an air of reverence for those of us who did all of our memorization from it.

NIV is not bad—just not good enough, I think. Like most modern versions, it is not a word-for-word translation, but a thought-for-thought translation. I like a word-for-word translation best.

NRSV has attempted to avoid male-gender language in places that speak generically of people. This gets really unnatural, at times, referring to men as "mortals" all the time.

[Paidion]

Yes, it is rather odd to translate "ανθρωποι" as "mortals." For the word as it is normally used, does not contrast "mortals" with "immortals." Yet translating it as "men" as the AV does, can be misleading to the modern mind. For we think of "men" as male human beings. I am inclined to translate "ανθρωποι" as "people."

It is true that some translations are more literal than others, and I, as Steve, prefer the more literal ones. Personally, I use the NASB, and even it is not literal enough for me in some places. Yet, I have learned that translating too literally can be misleading, since such a translation would not adjust for Greek idioms — and that's only one reason. Another reason is illustrated in the incorrect rendering of John 1:1 by the NWT as "The Word was a god." That's pretty literal, but it doesn't take into account that the word order and the lack of an article for "God" renders "God" as a quality, just as "truth" is a quality in the phrase "Your word is truth." (John 17:17)

In any case, I prefer the NASB to the NKJV in that it is, in my opinion, translated from older and more reliable manuscripts which have been discovered subsequent to textus receptus.

It is impossible to have a word-for-word translation of Hellenistic Greek into English because of the nature of the language. For example, what word would you use to translate "δουλοις" into English? It takes 3 English words to translate it, namely "to the slaves."

[steve]

I sent the guy a copy of the page posted by Paidion above, and asked my correspondent where I might find one of these for sale, as all the ones I can find in the store are the more recent KJVs that have been corrupted by modernizing the text. He wrote back:

God purifies his word, you dummy, why don't you know that?

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7.

Now see if you can follow the birdie as I explain very slowly for your benefit, seeing you are slow on the uptake and weak in faith. Ready? Not yet? Well too bad because I don't have time to wait 29 years until you finally are ready.

God gave his words to the men and prophets of old - by dreams and visions -- "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." Numbers 12:6. (cf. Job 33:15)

Where was the perfect bible before God did that, eh? IT DIDN'T EXIST YET.

God then spoke explicitly to men like Moses "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Numbers 12:8; "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." Job 23:12.

Where was the pefect Bible before God did they, eh? Do you get the point yet? I don't you do.

So then God's prophets then spoke God's words and others wrote their words down: "Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book." Jeremiah 36:18.

And then those precious originals got destroyed: "And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth." Jeremiah 36:23.

Where was the perfect Bible once that happened, eh? You have no clue where it was.

And so then God had the prophet dictate NEW WORDS THAT DIDN'T MATCH THE ORIGINAL WORDS: "Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words." Jeremiah 36:32.

And lo and behold God later decided to dump Hebrew and translating verses into Greek that didn't match the "original" at all: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38 ... what? where is that in the "perfect original" !!!

My, you seem to have "caught" the Lord Jesus Christ in your "logic" ... how does that make you feel, Mr. Brilliant? Pretty smart guy you are, aren't you?

God's exact words are important: "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:23 ... but God owns his "exact words" and translates them HIMSELF HOW HE WANTS IT DONE.

So where was the perfect bible in 33 AD? Where was it in 60 AD? 260 AD? When exactly did a "perfect" Bible ever exist in this history of the world?

I'll tell you when - right now today the King James Bible is perfect and God had it in mind prior to the first word of scripture ever being penned by anybody: "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:18.

God spoke through: dreamers, diviners, seers, prophets, priests, preachers, apostles.

God spoke his "words" to all of them, yet only a small part of all those many "words" ever got written down to become the "scriptures" -- it is only those words which God wants written down. (John 21:25). God spoke to some old prophet and said "He shall be called a Nazarene" - but such saying never got written down until Matthew put it into his gospel (Mt. 2:23).

So your "logic" just disqualified the New Testament because it "misquotes" the "original", right? Is it slowly starting to dawn on you yet how stupid you are for doubting God's ability to make his words appear in perfect form whenever he wants that to happen? Probably not.

And so he purified 7 times through the languages: HEBREW; GREEK; ARAMIAIC/SYRIAC; OLD LATIN; GOTHIC; GERMAN; ENGLISH.

God can translate: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5.

After it reached English, God purified it 7 more times:

Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew, Great Bible, Geneva, Bishops, and King James Bible.

It's a purifying work that God is up to in giving us his words as he wants them given to us in the world language of the end times.

So what in the world are you surprised about to discover that the King James Bible itself underwent purification??

They fixed the printing errors, they reconcilled the text to the committee's work, they made the font readible, they got rid of apocraphya, they standardized the spelling, they eliminated pictures, and they dropped the marginal notes. Once you do that you have .... A PERFECT BIBLE IN ENGLISH.

There is no "purifying" that which has been made pure by going and adding to it filth from Westcott, Hort, Television, Pop-culture, German higher criticism, lesbians and homos as "style" consultants, and so on and so forth.

That's how you end up with the bible-bable of today - you ignore the fact that God gave us pure words in the King James Bible.

If Moses or Jeremiah or Isaiah or Paul spoke to you face to face you would be just as agnostic, wouldn't you? You'd say "how do I know what you are saying came from God?" and "how come I can't listen to the false prophets who sound so much better on my ears?"

I told you not to write me back. I'm fully convinced I have just wasted 30 min of my time writting you this because you aren't going to listen, you aren't going to look up the verses, you aren't going to trust the words of God over your Greek/Hebrew lexicon written by apostate churchmen - most of whom didn't lead a single soul to Christ in their entire lives.

The logic is unanswerable. I have been converted!

[brody196]

I sent the guy a copy of the page posted by Paidion above, and asked my correspondent where I might find one of these for sale, as all the ones I can find in the store are the more recent KJVs that have been corrupted by modernizing the text. He wrote back:

God purifies his word, you dummy, why don't you know that?

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7.

Now see if you can follow the birdie as I explain very slowly for your benefit, seeing you are slow on the uptake and weak in faith. Ready? Not yet? Well too bad because I don't have time to wait 29 years until you finally are ready.

God gave his words to the men and prophets of old - by dreams and visions -- "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." Numbers 12:6. (cf. Job 33:15)

Where was the perfect bible before God did that, eh? IT DIDN'T EXIST YET.

God then spoke explicitly to men like Moses "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Numbers 12:8; "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." Job 23:12.

Where was the pefect Bible before God did they, eh? Do you get the point yet? I don't you do.

So then God's prophets then spoke God's words and others wrote their words down: "Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book." Jeremiah 36:18.

And then those precious originals got destroyed: "And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth." Jeremiah 36:23.

Where was the perfect Bible once that happened, eh? You have no clue where it was.

And so then God had the prophet dictate NEW WORDS THAT DIDN'T MATCH THE ORIGINAL WORDS: "Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words." Jeremiah 36:32.

And lo and behold God later decided to dump Hebrew and translating verses into Greek that didn't match the "original" at all: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38 ... what? where is that in the "perfect original" !!!

My, you seem to have "caught" the Lord Jesus Christ in your "logic" ... how does that make you feel, Mr. Brilliant? Pretty smart guy you are, aren't you?

God's exact words are important: "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:23 ... but God owns his "exact words" and translates them HIMSELF HOW HE WANTS IT DONE.

So where was the perfect bible in 33 AD? Where was it in 60 AD? 260 AD? When exactly did a "perfect" Bible ever exist in this history of the world?

I'll tell you when - right now today the King James Bible is perfect and God had it in mind prior to the first word of scripture ever being penned by anybody: "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:18.

God spoke through: dreamers, diviners, seers, prophets, priests, preachers, apostles.

God spoke his "words" to all of them, yet only a small part of all those many "words" ever got written down to become the "scriptures" -- it is only those words which God wants written down. (John 21:25). God spoke to some old prophet and said "He shall be called a Nazarene" - but such saying never got written down until Matthew put it into his gospel (Mt. 2:23).

So your "logic" just disqualified the New Testament because it "misquotes" the "original", right? Is it slowly starting to dawn on you yet how stupid you are for doubting God's ability to make his words appear in perfect form whenever he wants that to happen? Probably not.

And so he purified 7 times through the languages: HEBREW; GREEK; ARAMIAIC/SYRIAC; OLD LATIN; GOTHIC; GERMAN; ENGLISH.

God can translate: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5.

After it reached English, God purified it 7 more times:

Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew, Great Bible, Geneva, Bishops, and King James Bible.

It's a purifying work that God is up to in giving us his words as he wants them given to us in the world language of the end times.

So what in the world are you surprised about to discover that the King James Bible itself underwent purification??

They fixed the printing errors, they reconcilled the text to the committee's work, they made the font readible, they got rid of apocraphya, they standardized the spelling, they eliminated pictures, and they dropped the marginal notes. Once you do that you have .... A PERFECT BIBLE IN ENGLISH.

There is no "purifying" that which has been made pure by going and adding to it filth from Westcott, Hort, Television, Pop-culture, German higher criticism, lesbians and homos as "style" consultants, and so on and so forth.

That's how you end up with the bible-bable of today - you ignore the fact that God gave us pure words in the King James Bible.

If Moses or Jeremiah or Isaiah or Paul spoke to you face to face you would be just as agnostic, wouldn't you? You'd say "how do I know what you are saying came from God?" and "how come I can't listen to the false prophets who sound so much better on my ears?"

I told you not to write me back. I'm fully convinced I have just wasted 30 min of my time writting you this because you aren't going to listen, you aren't going to look up the verses, you aren't going to trust the words of God over your Greek/Hebrew lexicon written by apostate churchmen - most of whom didn't lead a single soul to Christ in their entire lives.

The logic is unanswerable. I have been converted!

The name of this guy wouldn't happen to be Peter Ruckman, would it? If not, he is parroting Ruckman word-for-word. Such a sweet spirited man, we could all learn a thing or two from his graciousness...I bet he is a real soul winner himself...

[Candlepower]

No translation is perfect, but I think the KJV and the NKJV (which I now prefer using) are good books.

I take great consolation in knowing that this poor soul at least has gotten hold of an excellent translation of the Holy Scriptures. Now I hope the Spirit of Christ gets hold of him.