Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

[RickC]

Don,

Please accept my apologies for not replying till now.

26 and anyone who lives again and believes in me will by no means ever die.

A Taking A Few More Liberties Paraphrase
26 and so, after anyone gets raised from the dead will they die again? Not!

And then you replied:
Rick, I was about to post a reply to suggest that we would simply have to disagree, and that your interpretation misses the point of what Jesus was saying, when I suddenly saw the reasoning in your intrerpetation. But then I realized that before I could embrace it, there would have to be a resolution of an apparent difficulty.

The two sentences you quote above as possible paraphrases appear to me to be inconsistent.

The first was a translation, not a paraphrase, which was why I added "again" in italics:
26 and anyone who lives again and believes in me will by no means ever die.

My rationale.
Jn 11(NIV)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live {Grk, nominative case}, even though he dies;
26 and whoever lives {Grk, zhsetai, Verb: 3rd person, future tense, middle voice, indicative mood} and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

My italicized "again" comes from the Greek, and most especially the future tense: In other words, in verse 26 Jesus was talking about the future {tense} "life-after-death" resurrection, imo. The tense proves he was saying so, to my satisfaction....

If Jesus meant as the more libertarian paraphase states that anyone who gets raised from the dead will not die again, then why did He in fact add the limiting phrase "and believes in me" (as in the first paraphrase above)? If Jesus was speaking of those who live after being raised from the dead, then the fact that of His adding this limiting phrase suggests that there will be some in the resurrection who do not believe in Him, and will, in fact, die again.

I see the phrase "and believes in me" as qualifiying or as "the qualifier."
In both verses pisteuWn {believing} is an active voice, present tense verb. This is why RYLT and other literal translations have "and is believing in me."

Jesus isn't specifically addressing those who won't share in the life of the {future} resurrection in these verses, nor of the judgment of unbelievers. He's speaking of the currently believing. From Jesus' teachings elsewhere, we could surmise that those who do not believe won't share in resurrected life {being "limited" and/or "restricted" from it}.

An apparent point here, imo, is that death doesn't "stop" faith: Believers who have passed on retain it {without going into anything about an intermediate state right now}. Also, whether or not resurrected unbelievers can "gain faith" is beyond the scope of this thread {I don't wish to "contest" any of that here either, as we covered it on the old forum. At any rate, in John 11:25-26, Jesus only speaks about current believers and the future resurrection life they will possess}.
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The phrase "believes in me" has more to do with just {what we might call} "having saving faith in God."

Josephus used the phrase, "Repent, and believe in me" when speaking to a Jewish rebel. What he meant was that this rebel should "change your mind and fully trust in me" by surrendering to the Romans.

N.T. Wright commented on this; that he was totally surprised to see Josephus say the same thing Jesus did! Wright suggests that when Jesus said it to his Jewish contemporaries, they would have understood it as the total trust and commitment to Messiah when he would come. In other words, for Christ, "Repent, and believe in me" wasn't as much about How To Go To Heaven (After You Die) as it was: My Messianic Kingdom Has Arrived: Change your Minds And Trust Me Fully....{now and forever}!

However, I suppose that would be entirely consistent with the position of annihilist-amillenialism that the unbelievers will be raised along with the believers at Jesus coming, and that the "second death" which they will experience will be annihilation, and thus they will die again.

Yes, my interpretation of John 11:25-27 is compatible with my other beliefs.

Btw, I don't have everything "ironed out" on the second death and other eschatology themes, though I work-with my amillennial-conditional immortality views.

I plan on starting new Eschatology threads to discuss these.
Sorry about the delayed reply, Thanks, Don,

[Paidion]

Thanks for your reply; I appreciate it, Rick.

However, I am puzzled by this quote:

26 and whoever lives {Grk, zhsetai, Verb: 3rd person, future tense, middle voice, indicative mood} and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

From which edition of the Greek New Testament do you find "lives" in the future tense?

Westcott-Hort, the Byzantine majority text, as well as papyrus 75 (which dates from the second century) all use ὁ ζων {present, active participle}, and thus the verse literally reads, "the one living and believing in me may not {aorist subjunctive} die into the age."

Ah hah! Just now I noticed that verse 25 contains ζησεται {3rd person sing., future middle indicative}. You must have unconsciously transferred this to verse 26.

[RickC]

Thanks for your reply; I appreciate it, Rick.

However, I am puzzled by this quote:

26 and whoever lives {Grk, zhsetai, Verb: 3rd person, future tense, middle voice, indicative mood} and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

From which edition of the Greek New Testament do you find "lives" in the future tense?

Westcott-Hort, the Byzantine majority text, as well as papyrus 75 (which dates from the second century) all use ὁ ζων {present, active participle}, and thus the verse literally reads, "the one living and believing in me may not {aorist subjunctive} die into the age."

Ah hah! Just now I noticed that verse 25 contains ζησεται {3rd person sing., future middle indicative}. You must have unconsciously transferred this to verse 26.

Sorry, I think I must have messed up,
Let me try again....

Jn 11(NIV)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live {Grk, zhsetai, Verb: 3rd person, future tense, middle voice, indicative mood}, even though he dies;
26 and whoever lives {Grk, ho zwn, Verb: present tense, active voice, participle mood}----{as a result being resurrected back to life in the future, from zhsetai, v. 25}---and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I referred back to v. 25 but didn't explain it quite right! {duh}
This sure seems like a VERY strong case for a future "life-after-death" rez, huh?

Thanks for the Westcott-Hort & Thanks generally, Don,

[mikew]

Hi Pmike & MikeW,

Thanks for your replies.
Quick note:
I'm not interested in discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism on this thread.
I'm not saying "no one can," just that I won't be. Anyways, Thanks,

I believe the Jews, Jesus, and the Apostles believed in a final bodily resurrection which would happen at the end of human history as we now know it. I stand by this conviction and, as I mentioned before, won't debate anyone about it on this thread, Thanks,

Ok. I'm glad we agree on that point. Now you just have to study what scripture says in general on resurrection.

I certainly affirm that there is the bodily resurrection on the Last Day and that such resurrection is yet future. All I have been trying to do is help you see what scripture says on resurrection. This isn't an attempt to force you to any decision -- all I can do is hope you explore the scripture with a few questions or items to resolve.

My general purpose is to help each guy come up with the best arguments for his position. Believe me, I simply gave up trying to convince specific people of anything.

So I am just saying that you need to look at John 11 in light of John 5 and I don't see what problem occurs in that task.

[RickC]

Hello Mike,

I've studied John 5.
If you would like to start a new thread on it, please do,