Does God still inflict national or generational judgment

[steve7150]

Don't you believe that God is LOVE (I John 4:8, 4:16) and that in Him is no darkness at all (I John 1:5)?









Paidion, What is your opinion on the Genesis flooding of the earth? Wouldn't children who died before the age of accountability have been among the "innocent victims" in that flood that God caused.
I think it was a regional flood but if memory serves me, you believe it to be worldwide. So how could a loving God cause it?

[Ian]

If AD70 was God`s judgement/revenge for the mistreatment of Jesus, then was not Jesus`prayer "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" ignored? If so, it calls into question the whole idea of the Trinity, or could God deny a request to himself, so to speak? Or did the post-resurrection Jesus later change his mind? That would seem strange as the prayer was uttered at his time of greatest pain.

Going back to your original question, Jeffrey, this topic was touched on here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=haiti

[jeffreyclong]

@Ian. Thanks. That was a really good discussion you linked me to. My original question has been lost in the background noise of the conflict regarding universalism. That previous thread mostly referred to the devil's influence in Haiti, more than God. It does seem that Pat Robertson was playing the role of prophet in attempting to define the meaning of the events. That would certainly be a way around the threat of stoning if they prophecy wrong. Just say "I think."

I would enjoy hearing other's opinions.

[steve7150]

If AD70 was God`s judgement/revenge for the mistreatment of Jesus, then was not Jesus`prayer "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" ignored? If so, it calls into question the whole idea of the Trinity, or could God deny a request to himself, so to speak? Or did the post-resurrection Jesus later change his mind? That would seem strange as the prayer was uttered at his time of greatest pain.









Interesting point, so the issue might be who is the "them" Jesus wanted forgiveness for?

[john6809]

If AD70 was God`s judgement/revenge for the mistreatment of Jesus, then was not Jesus`prayer "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" ignored? If so, it calls into question the whole idea of the Trinity, or could God deny a request to himself, so to speak? Or did the post-resurrection Jesus later change his mind? That would seem strange as the prayer was uttered at his time of greatest pain.

Going back to your original question, Jeffrey, this topic was touched on here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=haiti

Jesus always subjected His will to the Fathers' will. As in the garden of Gethsemane where He prayed for the cup to pass from Him, but, nevertheless, Your will be done. Stephen also asked God to forgive those who stoned him. Does God forgive people who don't request forgiveness? If I don't repent of my sins and someone asks God to forgive me, will He? It seems to me that the request is more of a statement of Jesus' or Stephen's personal forgiveness towards those that are harming them. In a similiar manner, I can forgive someone who harms me without them ever repenting, but that doesn't change their accountability towards God.
John

[steve]

Like the Jewish high priest, on the day of atonement, Jesus' intercession would be for the nation, not for individuals, per se. The prayer of Jesus for the forgiveness of those who killed Him may have postponed the judgment of the nation for a generation. Thus, rather than God inflicting the national judgment immediately (which might otherwise have happened) He stalled the judgment for several decades. This is what happened to Nineveh also. Jonah's warning of impending judgment (due to the national repentance, in that case) was stalled, but not canceled. Nineveh fell 100 years later.

[Homer]

John 6809 wrote:

Jesus always subjected His will to the Fathers' will. As in the garden of Gethsemane where He prayed for the cup to pass from Him, but, nevertheless, Your will be done. Stephen also asked God to forgive those who stoned him. Does God forgive people who don't request forgiveness? If I don't repent of my sins and someone asks God to forgive me, will He? It seems to me that the request is more of a statement of Jesus' or Stephen's personal forgiveness towards those that are harming them. In a similiar manner, I can forgive someone who harms me without them ever repenting, but that doesn't change their accountability towards God.

I do believe God answered Jesus' prayer from the cross. On the day of Pentecost they had not been forgiven; Peter said to them that they had killed their Messiah and called on them to repent and be baptized. 3000 of them obeyed the gospel and were forgiven.

[john6809]

John 6809 wrote:

Jesus always subjected His will to the Fathers' will. As in the garden of Gethsemane where He prayed for the cup to pass from Him, but, nevertheless, Your will be done. Stephen also asked God to forgive those who stoned him. Does God forgive people who don't request forgiveness? If I don't repent of my sins and someone asks God to forgive me, will He? It seems to me that the request is more of a statement of Jesus' or Stephen's personal forgiveness towards those that are harming them. In a similiar manner, I can forgive someone who harms me without them ever repenting, but that doesn't change their accountability towards God.

I do believe God answered Jesus' prayer from the cross. On the day of Pentecost they had not been forgiven; Peter said to them that they had killed their Messiah and called on them to repent and be baptized. 3000 of them obeyed the gospel and were forgiven.

I agree Homer. However, repentance preceded forgiveness. Would forgiveness have occurred without repentance? As in Steve's example of Nineveh, if Nineveh had not heeded Jonah's prophecy of destruction, would they have been granted an additional 100 years? In the end, it seemed they turned away from God again and their reprieve was eventually cancelled.

[Homer]

John6809,

I agree Homer. However, repentance preceded forgiveness. Would forgiveness have occurred without repentance?

No, I do not believe so. Peter, in his sermon, made repentance a condition of forgiveness.

[Paidion]

Paidion, What is your opinion on the Genesis flooding of the earth? Wouldn't children who died before the age of accountability have been among the "innocent victims" in that flood that God caused.
I think it was a regional flood but if memory serves me, you believe it to be worldwide. So how could a loving God cause it?

Steve, I do think God caused a world-wide flood which exterminated all human life except 8 persons, as well as all mammals and birds except those on the ark. Nevetheless, I am not adamant about this belief.

But Steve, many who have nearly drowned, and have been revived, have said that drowning was a pleasurable experience, and were somewhat angry at having been revived. That's where the discomfort was — in the revival. But that's not the point. Even if many or most suffered a lot of discomfort in drowning, the purpose was to eliminate evil from the earth, though it turned out that the descendents of the 8 righteous became just as evil as those who died in the flood.

To me, what God did there is quite different from the atrocities which some ascribe to Him. Many believe in everlasting conscious torment of the lost. Some of those who hold to that belief think that one of the greatest enjoyments of the saved will be to watch the lost writhe in pain forever. To me, the latter reveals a heart more evil than that of many, if not most, of the lost.

However, the difficulty with the idea of God causing the Jews in 70 A.D. to suffer thirst and lack of food until they die or ate their children, or causing the terrible atrocities done to the Jews by the Nazis, or causing tsunamis, and earthquakes to punish people is two fold:

1. It assumes God's justice is retributive rather than reformative and restitutive. "You did evil; you must pay!" It assumes God's punishment is penal.

2. It suggests that God's punishment is selective. Why did He, or does He punish some people groups around the world and not others? Are the groups which He punishes more evil than those whom He doesn't? Are people who are seriously ill being punished by God? It seems to me that many who are the most evil in the world, are among those who do not suffer at all, and who have many possessions, political power, and almost anything their heart desires. Why are they exempt from God's punishment? Job pointed this out to his "comforters" many hundreds of years ago. Or are they "storing up wrath" for a later date? Even if that is the case, it doesn't explain why some evil people are "getting off scott free" in this life. Why are little girls being raped and tortured to death? Is God punishing their parents? Or is He punishing the little girls themselves?

Are people who get seriously sick, or get tortured, or are in a state of starvation, or who must live on the streets to survive, etc. worse sinners than those who live in luxury and sail smoothly throughout life?

Jesus addressed the way of thinking that sufferers are more evil than those who don't suffer:

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5 RSV)

So it seems that Jesus didn't think that God punished those Galileans by using Pilate to kill them; nor did He think God punished those 18 people by causing the tower in Siloam to fall on them!