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I'm giving you a big picture, please take one little part of the whole (above) and bring it back to the table, and then we can discuss it more.
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Papa J, you seem to only hold to two parts of Calvinism (TALON, I guess), which is good.
The truth generally falls in the middle somewhere, because logically there will always be extremes to both ends of everything.
Actually if you read the post at the bottom of page 2, I confessed to hold to 3 of the 5 TULIP positions and hopefully you read all those OT passages I listed, which will help me keep this shorter than 3 pages. I’m assuming this is a follow up to why God chooses more from one area (European, Middle East, Africa, Asia) than other area’s; lets not forget Mexico and the Philippines, but not now another 2-pages.
If you understood all that I was saying about the descendants of Jacob being God’s elect people, which Calvinist completely ignore in order to come up with “those He foreknew” to be people God selected to be saved before the creation of Adam in some Divine decree. I keep asking them what is more Devine, God or their Decree? My point was in my previous posting, is that Israel of the 830 BC captivity went through their 70 years of captivity, and a percentage of them escaped to the north through the Caucasia’s Mountains to emerge on the southern steps of Russia as Caucasians, and then migrated to Europe. These people lost their identity of being Israelites, lost their written language (was never commonly used) but they spread their spoken language throughout Europe, we call it the Indo-European language. The Indo (Persian) from their 2nd and 3rd generation captivity with the Medes, in whose land they lived and the European (Hittite) a combination of Syrian (remember there were several waves of Assyrian captivities and the Syrians were taken first) and Israelite language, being they were cousins, their Linear A written language was a combination of Hebrew and Greek letters written from right to left, then Linear B was the early Greek language written from left to right. So sorry, Phillip Usher was a bit confused about his Table of Nations, being he had the Book of Genesis and a limited knowledge of the world. Usher wrote from his vast experience of being in his twenties, a doctrinal thesis, information he had just recently been taught from the school that hired him to teach the generation behind him; and that is what most college education is, institutions cloning themselves with parrots to spread their popular views. If Usher would have known what Marco Polo knew about the Asians, he would not have concluded that Caucasians were descendants of Japheth, who better fit the description of ‘coastland peoples.’ I mean just go to any Asian port and you will see Harbour’s filled with little house boats and people eating everything that lives in the ocean and Usher wanted to identify Mediterranean people who feared the Ocean as being ‘coastland people? 2nd their blessing was to be enlarged, 3rd they would be separated from the descendants of Shem and Ham.Maybe you were agreeing, but I do not think your answer to my one question was complete.
It seems that anywhere between 30-80% of Americans are professing 'Christians' or Catholics, and 20-50% of all people in western European nations are Christians. And the percentage of people who come from Christian homes are between 40-80%.
So, if God 'chooses' (pre-birth, pre-confession, whatever) then does he only send these chosen 'spirit children' (Sounds like Mormonism) into western world countries?
The number of the 'chosen' Christians in eastern countries like India is drastically lower than bible nations; India (3-5%), China (3-10%*) etc., not to mention Islamic Countries (0.5-5%), any glance at a world religions chart would reveal Christians are Christians where the Bible is read.
So, God must use His Word to save, rather than favor Americans over people in India.
No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse, as does the Church of Christ with baptism. The idea that those who are saved, to believe is an indicative not an imperative. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to those who believe. Again it sounds like an imperative, but the point is those who believe have had some type of experience before they actually believe. I know you read my testimony that I shared over at ‘The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?’ For years and years I felt like a freak since other people I fellowshipped with were ‘easy-believe-ism Baptist’ I found very, very few who had the same salvation experience. I met all kinds of people who professed to have believed in Jesus, still struggling with sin or living a compromising lifestyle, so I just had to except the fact that God did not do to everyone what He did to me. Then I started hanging out with Reformed Calvinistic people at Dr. Morey’s church and I met all kinds of people who had the same experience that I shared on the ‘Hell Post’ then later I started hanging out with more Calvary Chapel types who were coming to my Bible Studies who had also experience dramatic transformations. And with all of them as I asked key questions they sensed God dealing with them about their sin causing them to fall before God; after that they confessed Christ to be their Lord and began to believe. Just like the testimony of Saul when God knocked Saul down, blinding him, he asked who it was, but Paul called Him Lord.Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;
'God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Cor.1:21)
'…the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written' (Romans 1:16-17)
'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness' (Romans 4:3)
'Therefore, having been justified by faith' (Romans 5:1)
Yes it is by His choosing, but He has designed through what He calls faith that we take the action of faith that there is a change in the direction of our life so others can see His workmanship so that His Righteousness is revealed from faith to faith. And yes part of believing is not giving a mental assent to His existence, but that we give a mental assent to accepting what the Scriptures say about Him, us and what He is doing in our lives, this is what comes through our being born from above, we are born of the Holy Spirit, which comes before our ability to believe; then the evidence of our ability to believe is our active reaction to what He says. We believe, we read His Word, we go to church, and we get baptized, all of these are the activities of faith and if there is no activity, then we have an empty faith and there is no evidence for our justification. This is why the Calvinist ‘Golden Chain’ starts with: those He foreknew, the descendants of Jacob being “called according to His purpose,” and He predestined that some would be conformed to becoming like Jesus, and those He was conforming (an evidence of faith) He would justify with the blood of Christ, and those showing forth the workmanship of God in their life would expect to be glorified.If Paul thought election was by His choosing - unrelated to our accepting the scripture and repentance - then Paul would have laid that down first, but Paul lays the foundation of Faith from Romans 1-8, 'then' proceeds to answer the question of the Jews following all this;
'I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh…' (9:2-…)
It is the Jews God foreknew and who were elected.
Yes I agree with you that God calls some, but we are to proclaim the Gospel to all and just because some respond today does not mean their family members are not of the elect, of course they would be, but God has not saved them yet, and when God extends His convicting power through the Holy Spirit you know he is working through the preaching of His Word. No again you have it turned around, when God is doing His work, convicting men of sin, He has made His choice, nothing to do with sincerity or our belief. The best way I can put is that faith arises in the life of a believer when the Holy Spirit is indwelling the person being saved; in this way no man may boast before God.My synopsis is;
I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond.
(Otherwise repentance, preaching, believing, trusting, etc. is rendered meaningless, no matter what RC Sproul says)
People are drawn by hearing or reading His Word, with the light of His Spirit on their heart 'prior'' to conversion, they can believe or 'not' choose to follow the Spirit and the Words 'prompting' to believe.
If they do believe, it is still God who makes the final choice to accept the sincerity and surety of our belief, so it is still God who chooses those who have faith to be saved (So that no man may boast before God).
Sorry PapaJ, we have to assume our user names will be misunderstood. I am John not Jr, but whatever, either will do.
You wrote; 'So if I’m correct on all of this it would answer your question about why so many Europeans and when it comes to America, well just look at us!'
Well the Macedonian call from the Holy Spirit did give direction of the Gospel for Paul to go west, but Peter and a few others went east. What as mainly in the east were Jews who did not return to Jerusalem with Ezra and Nehemiah, so God’s call to Paul to go west to follow the direction of the children of Israel scattered into the nations of Europe. Acts 9:15; “Go your way: for Paul is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the Children of Israel.” So Paul was being directed to the nations where the Children of Israel were scattered. And since Israel is the proper way to understand “those He foreknew” it attack’s at the root of Calvinist’ belief in electing individuals before Adam was created. Most likely if you reject the Calvinist view and my view then you would theorize that God was choosing people “a little more evenly throughout the world.”I really did not follow this. (Since you are 'not' accepting the Calvinists doctrine of pre-birth / pre-belief election, right?)
I was just pointing out what I propose to Calvinists; The strange imbalance in the world if their doctrine is true, God places most 'all' the chosen ones in western nations, nations that are preaching the Gospel, and neglecting to place 'chosen elect' people a little more evenly throughout the world.
Well you are assuming that all those people making professions of faith in Christ during the periods of Great Awakenings were all truth believers. Thousands of people have made professions of faith with Billy Graham and Greg Laurie, but never read their Bibles or darken the doors of good churches, so they are professing Christians, not born of the Spirit. Well it is more than the presentation of the Gospel, who must have the witness and convicting power of the Holy Spirit to do the work of transforming a life. Moving people “to consider God’s love and Sacrifice” does not change them. I find most Calvinist like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons to be pretty ignorant, so it does not take much to make a good number of Calvinist’ to think twice.It sure seems odd that all the 'chosen elect' just happen to surface in evangelical circles, during revivals, Gospel presentations, and in response to hearing the Good news. 'If' people were pre-elected wouldn't it be more believable and logical that they would surface all over the place claiming they believe, without the presentation, and or hearing of the Gospel message? I believe the presentation of the Gospel can shine through the deepest totally 'depraved' heart, and possibly move a person to consider Gods Love and Sacrifice. I do not know how else to make this point clearer, but this seemed to have made a few of the Calvinists I have talked to think twice.
Putting “the cart before the horse” was a reference to what you wrote saying, “Wouldn't you agree this agrees with Scripture;You wrote; 'No I would not agree since you are putting the cart before the horse'
I do not know if you meant; that I am putting belief before salvation, is the horse salvation, and the cart belief? You wrote; … instead of believing stupid 23-yr old doctrinal candidates like Phillip Usher, you would know that a Jewish High Priest …'
What are you talking about? I never heard of Usher (the R&B singer, yes).
No problem if your not ready for that, and you are correct God calls through the conviction power of His Holy Spirit, if that does not take place you can’t respond or come to Him any other way. The reason I can’t fully accept ‘I’ in the TULIP is the fact that people do Resist when they first hear the Gospel, some give testimony of them running from God. Now the question is are they resisting the General Call or are they resisting the effectual call? I will concede with my Calvinist friends they may be right, but I have heard too many give testimony that they rebelled and resisted and ran from God and here is the important part, they were all captured by the Love of God in the end and came to Him. This means though there are many still running and how do we know they will continue to run or not? So what I can not say until I stand with one running from God on their death bed is, are they running from a General Call or an effectual call. Is it their wife wanting them to get saved and bringing the preacher with her to get him saved or is it the work of the Holy Spirit making them miserable until they stop resisting? The problem is there are too many warnings not to harden your heart when he calls to say it is ‘Irresistible’ but on the other end look what God did to Saul, knocked him to the ground, blinded him with His glory, then sent him another direction to find his sight. That was not ‘Irresistible’ that was compelling.You wrote; 'It is clear from that record that Jonathan was inviting the people of those two great cities; to Jerusalem to celebrate the ‘Feast of Israel’ and renew the confederacy they once had at a time in the past. So tell me when that was? Hey I’m not going to give you all the answers; you do some research and tell me what document it was from?' I am not sure why I would, you must be going down a different road, I do not see why you are giving such an answer to my comments; 'It is the Jews God 'foreknew' and who were elected' 'I believe God 'calls', and people need to respond' 'it is...God who chooses those who 'have faith' to be saved'
Neither do a good job of understanding the Scriptures when dealing with the foreknowledge of God. They are both theological theories disconnected from the Scriptures. When I say both, I’m not speaking of Open Theism and Molinism, I speaking of Calvinism verses the Process Theology being used to define Arminianism. The original Arminians believed in an all knowing God, not this dribble from 19th Century Philosophers Whitehead and Hartshome who seem to have adopted Mormon Theology saying God is like His creation, learning as He goes just a ways ahead of His creation. Like I said these are the theories of men that Jesus attacked when He came to those who claimed to be followers of Moses and the other Prophets21centpilgrim, you don't have to choose between Calvinism and Arminianism. When it comes to election, I think both Open Theism and Molinism do a better job of explaining how God's foreordination can exist alongside of human free will.
That is a misrepresentation of Arminianism. You claim that Arminians believe that man initiates their own salvation. That is false. It was not believed by Arminius, nor Wesley, nor any classical Arminian. This is a common myth held by many Calvinists (either willingly or ignorantly). I don't believe you are a Calvinist (I am pretty sure I remember you resisting that label), but it is still possible to be influenced by things that they say. I would recommend you read, if you haven't already, Roger Olson's book 'Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities' so that your information about Arminianism comes from the actual writings of Arminians rather than Calvinists.Accept for the Remonstrant’s all Orthodox Christians confessed that God initiated the work of salvation; a hundred and some years later this view was made popular again by the Methodist. The first denomination to affirm Arminianism, which was a new twist on the old Pelagian Heresy, we call semi-Pelagianism,