The Day of Judgment for the Christian

[Todd]

That was a quick reply Todd! Where do you live?

Texas

To add something else to the equation:
in 2004 I broke three bones in my neck in a motor bike accident. The breaks compressed the spinal chord so that I was temporarily a complete tetraplegic. However the spinal cord was not severed at any point so that I regained movement to my limbs after the operation. Nonetheless every square inch of my skin is numb and burns uncomfortably hot - the so-called "neuropathic pain", "one of the worst pains known to Man" . No let-up for the rest of my life. This is what I`m stuck with. I don`t wish to be a cry-baby, but my friend has some major catching-up to do on the suffering stakes. I would be surprised if he did.

Just to be clear, I don't believe that every bad thing that happens to someone is necessarily due to some retribution from God. There are countless times that bad things happen to good people due to someone else's sin (e.g., a drunk driver who kills an innocent person, or an evil dictator who commits genocide). Also, some things that happen are just accidental (the rain falls on the just and unjust). So, I guess your point is that suffering doesn't seem to be appropriated based on one's righteousness or lack thereof; have I understood you correctly?

Undoubtedly some. But you seem to be saying that the punishment is meeted out proportionally in each man`s case here and now in this life. I kind of would like to believe that, but don`t feel able to.

I believe that God punishes people as is appropriate in His view, which may or may not be what you or I think is appropriate.

And doesn`t a seared conscience suffer less than an intact one, here and now in this lifetime?

I think that a seared conscience makes it harder for someone to realize the error in which he is entangled, but I don't think it lessens the consequences of sinful choices.

Gal 6:7-9
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

This scripture seems clear that one reaps what he sows either for good or bad, even though it may not happen immediately. One who sows to the flesh will end up corrupted and wallow in the mire of his own sinful choices (e.g., the prodigal son).

2) How are Christians rewarded for their bad works other than punishment for them?

This question was not for me, but I've explained how Christians are rewarded for their bad works according to the Ultra Universalist view; it happens during their lifetime. Christians are not exempt from suffering the consequences of their continuing sin. The advantage for the Christian in this life is through repentance and following the Spirit's leading. Christ came to turn us away from sin and thereby escape the inevitable consequences. Peter said this to Christians, "Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul," (1 Pet 2:11). To avoid the war against the soul we need to abstain from the fleshly lusts.

Why did Christ have to die then?

Here's a quote from a fellow Ultra-Universalist.

I believe that one day (what is referred to as the "last day" in John's Gospel), Jesus is going to return bodily from heaven and will resurrect all who have died (as well as change all who are still alive), and that by this instantaneous change all people will be made both immortal and sinless. What does this have to do with the cross? Well, I understand the cross to be the pledge of this universal subjection to Christ, since it is because of his sacrificial death that God highly exalted Jesus and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18; Phil 2:8-11; cf. Daniel 7:13-14) - which includes the power and authority to subject all people to himself and thus reconcile all to God (Col 1:20; Phil 3:20-21). So really, I don't think anyone is instantly saved upon death. Instead, I think everyone will be instantly saved when Christ raises the dead.

Todd

[Ian]

I very very much hope you`re right, Todd.

One minor point - those last two quotes weren`t from me (!)

[Todd]

I very very much hope you`re right, Todd.

One minor point - those last two quotes weren`t from me (!)

Ian,

Sorry, I just thought of that and came back to the computer to fix it, but see you found it first. I'll edit my post.

Todd

[Douglas]

I am not sure who here has read Blumhardt's Battle, but it brings up aspects of potential "punishment" after physical death that one might ponder. If you have not read Blumhardt's Battle (or the awakening) then I would recommend it. If nothing else it will make you think about this topic from a perspective you might not have thought about before.

Doug

[Ian]

You`re right. Douglas. I read The Fight. It is harrowing to read in a way, because of the apparent "punishment" or fear of it at least. However in that book he also writes:

Nobody thinks of the dead, and yet there are billions of them. Their guilt is often not very great if one considers that most of them are pagans not responsible for their ignorance.
Seen in that light, the statement that the world is in bondage to evil takes on much deeper meaning. The apostle’s thought that the whole universe has fallen prey to this power of lying and death is as shattering as the other thought is uplifting: that through Christ’s ultimate victory, creation will be liberated from this bondage.

implying that, while he wouldn`t agree with Todd, he would have sympathy for the Universalist position overall.

[brody196]

You bring up reasonable objections when dealing with an extreme case like Hitler. It would seem to me that Hitler was most likely a tormented soul who died an untimely death brought about as a result of his wickedness. This was God's wrath against him. But your objection is that this result (God's judgment against Hitler) is not sufficient for all the evil he did. I would agree that there is no equity here; from our viewpoint equity would only be accomplished if he suffered that same fate a million times. But I don't believe God works that way. Once a man is dead he can no longer sin or do harm to others. What good could be accomplished by further punishment? After all, if justice is about doing the right thing, what righteousness is there in additional torment when God has the power to simply raise him in a sinless state?

Hi Todd,

On what scriptural basis do you assume the highlighted above? If man retains any form of will when he dies, would it not be likely that this same man would continue to be in defiance to God until he was destroyed?

[Todd]

Hi Todd,

On what scriptural basis do you assume the highlighted above? If man retains any form of will when he dies, would it not be likely that this same man would continue to be in defiance to God until he was destroyed?

Brody,

How many dead people have you seen sinning?...or doing anything else for that matter. Dead people are lifeless in the grave; having no thought or action.

Eccl 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Todd

[RICHinCHRIST]

Thought I'd bump this for the sake of those following the thread on Purgatory vs. Universalism. I had questions about 2 Corinthians 5 a couple years back and thought something similar to Homer's post on purgatory.

[steve7150]

Thought I'd bump this for the sake of those following the thread on Purgatory vs. Universalism. I had questions about 2 Corinthians 5 a couple years back and thought something similar to Homer's post on purgatory.

User avatar
RICHinCHRIST


Hi Rich,
It seems to me everyone is judged at the great white throne judgment and you are either in the book of life or not. Some verses that support this are John 5.28-29 & Matt 25.31 & Rev 20.
So if you are in the book of life, you are still judged by your works because the verses cited specifically say everyone is judged by their works or what they have done.
IMO Rev 7 mentions a great multitude around the throne, yet it says they will be fed and led by Christ which sounds like they have a maturation or sanctification process to go through and apparently this is part of the judgment process. In fact IMHO they may help Christ disciple the great mass of humanity who are in the lake of fire. Just my opinion but the bible says believers will reign with Christ. What will they reign over?

[Paidion]

2. Eastern Orthodox - who believe that everyone goes to the same place in the resurrection, but all receive a different experience in heaven based on their faith or lack thereof in their lifetime.

Thanks for that, Todd. I had never heard that before. I checked it out, and found it to be correct. My understanding is that the Orthodox believe that under the same LOVE of God (or consuming fire — the same thing), the effect on the lost is different from that on the saved. The latter experience God's love as pain, and the former as joy. They point out that the lake of fire and sulphur is God's purifying fire — that the Greek word for sulphur is "θειον" believed to be derived from "θεος" (God). The Online Bible Greek Lexicon defines the word as "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease."

In "The Last Battle" of The Narnian Chronicles by C.S. Lewis, the black dwarves ended up in Aslan's Country (symbolic of heaven). But they thought they were still in the stable in Narnia. They refused with disgust the scrumptious food and exquisite wine offered them, since to them (who didn't believe in Aslan) they were being offered rotting turnips from the cows' stalls, and urine from the troughs behind the cows in the stable.

Perhaps the Orthodox Church is right. Perhaps all will go to heaven, but that the judgment relates to the extent to which a person can enjoy the wonders there — or suffer from them.

Years ago, I remember wondering how to follow Christ's instruction, "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven." I wondered whether we do this by developing our character by the grace of God, by developing attitudes and behaviours which would enable us to better enjoy what is there.