The Hiddeness Of God

[steve]

Jim,

None of us can say whether or not more people would be saved if God would do something differently. The simple truth is that God does what He sees fit to do. What He does is enough. He enlightens every man who comes into the world (John 1:9). He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8).

The responsibility remains with man to respond one way or another. If God would appear on national television in the form of a levitating, meat-cleaver-juggling Sasquatch, He would probably get more attention, but it might not be the kind of attention He desires.

On balance, I think God has done a mighty good job of making Himself obvious. It is the non-responsiveness of men that is to be blamed for the low turn-out.

[darinhouston]

Casting pearls before swine comes to mind -- as Steve said -- he's done "more than enough." Any more would be waste.

[seer]

On balance, I think God has done a mighty good job of making Himself obvious. It is the non-responsiveness of men that is to be blamed for the low turn-out

So Steve, you really don't believe that more evidence would save more men?

[Michelle]

On balance, I think God has done a mighty good job of making Himself obvious. It is the non-responsiveness of men that is to be blamed for the low turn-out

So Steve, you really don't believe that more evidence would save more men?

Seer, just curious... did you ever believe that?

[darinhouston]

I suspect seer's trying to lead us Arminians to some presumed point of contradiction. Wait for it.... maybe not.

Seriously, seer, do you think from the Reformed perspective that you need ANY light for the "elect" to come to the Master? Clearly, we believe God works through lives and circumstances and varying degrees of light and revelation to convict a sinner, and yes we believe that to a point more can lead some to the Lord that wouldn't have come but for that light, but there's a point that I believe God's wisdom knows that "enough is enough." More might work on some, but that's not the sort of Faith He wants. That's my understanding of what is clearly a mystery, though.

God declares that He wants all to come, but clearly He doesn't do everything He "could" do to compel this to occur, so we must deduct that there is a "type" of Faith that He wants from the "all" that would only come with less than compelling displays of His Glory.

[seer]

On balance, I think God has done a mighty good job of making Himself obvious. It is the non-responsiveness of men that is to be blamed for the low turn-out

So Steve, you really don't believe that more evidence would save more men?

Seer, just curious... did you ever believe that?

Actually yes.

[steve]

Jim,

You are doing it again! Asking leading questions, but providing no arguments (the same tactic I took you to task for at this page: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... a&start=20 ). What's more, you keep asking the same questions, even when they have already been answered directly. Your last post to me asked (again):

"So Steve, you really don't believe that more evidence would save more men?"

Did you even read my previous post (at the top of this page of this thread), which began by directly answering this very question?

I sometimes think that the Calvinists' last-ditch ploy is to simply keep Arminians busy answering dead-end questions (again and again), in order to keep them out of a more public discourse, where they might do more damage.

[Michelle]

Actually yes.

Thanks, Seer.

I confess that I was thinking like Darin was when he said to watch for the trap where you back us into a contradiction. I'm probably walking right into it if that's what you've planned, but I'm interested in what you have to say, so I'm willing to risk it.

I don't know why some people believe and some don't based on what God has revealed already. I don't get why people do, think, and believe a lot of things. I'm a public school teacher (which is neither here nor there, but I thought I'd mention it because I'm going to reference things I've learned about people from my job.) I know, but can't understand why, some kids easily master what I teach, some need different approaches, and some never seem to catch on. It seems that in the matter of faith, that's true as well, and I still don't know why.

It seldom seems to be true that if something works a little, a lot of it will work a lot more. (I run into this mistake a LOT in public education. Er, not that God and public education should probably EVER be thought of as analogous, to be sure!) Steve used an outrageous distortion of how God might reveal himself in a louder and more startling way, but you talked about daily, tender personal communication. It seems to me that there are examples of this in the Bible that didn't get the results you predict.

Adam and Eve were apparently familiar enough with the voice and presence of God in the garden that they recognized the sound of him walking, yet they disobeyed Him.

The Children of Israel witness the parting of the Red Sea and the swallowing of the Egyptian Army, yet they had barely stepped into the desert when they started worshipping idols.

Multitudes of people saw Jesus do miraculous things, and a lot of them followed him for a while, but most turned away.

I don't know why people are like that; it seems to defy logic. It seems like after witnessing a massive miracle, you would never doubt nor disobey the Lord again, but apparently that's not always the case.

When the Sadducees and the Pharisees came asking Jesus for a sign, he said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after signs. I take it to mean that there is evidence enough for faith. And I still don't know why some believe and others don't. That's one of the things about Calvinism that's attractive to me; you have an answer for that puzzling question.

[Jill]

.

[Michelle]

What's the thing about Calvinism that is attractive to you? I missed something I think, but I do agree that there are enough items in the New Testament Itself to point anyone to the events, time, and sayings of this one Jesus Christ and to God. This gives me knowledge. A kind of hidden knowledge, that of experience.

The thing that is attractive to me, kinda/sorta, is that they have an answer to the question, "Why, given the same evidence, do some believe while others do not?" Their answer is that God in His sovereignty has predestined some to believe. These believers will believe after they have been regenerated so they can believe.

What do you mean by, "This gives me knowledge. A kind of hidden knowledge, that of experience?"