Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

Post by **_TK** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:27 am

Steve:

I can appreciate everything you wrote, and I dont necessarily disagree with you.

I agree that we should obviously be submissive to God's will. The problem is that for many things we are not always sure what God's will is. But Jesus still said to "ask." I struggle with the concept of asking for things, if God is only going to answer the way he was always going to answer.

I'd like you to do something for me, and I know this may sound weird, but oh well. I am going to give a scenario, and I would like you to type out how you would pray for the person verbally (assuming you are in the person's presence). In fact, I think it would be neat if several of you would do this for me. I am just interested in knowing how people pray.

Let's say a friend of yours comes to you and tells you that he just had some medical tests done that show his liver is not functioning properly. He asks you to pray for him for healing. What would you pray?

If this makes you uncomfortable, believe me, I understand.

TK

Post by **__id_2627** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:30 am

So TK, what is more closely aligned with what you believe faith is?

1/ Faith is trusting in God that he can and will do something if it is his will, if I ask.

2/ Faith is believing that God will do something if I believe he will do it when I pray.

3/ ??

When Peter walked in water did he lose the belief that he could walk on water, or did he lose trust in Jesus to hold him up in the storm? I believe the latter.

Look at it this way. If God is only going to do what He was always going to do, why pray anyway? if we dont believe our prayers mean something, why pray?

Why does it only have to be this way? I don't think that God is only going to do what He was always going to do. God sometimes does things when we ask Him to do them, and sometimes he doesn't do things if we don't ask that He may have done if we had asked Him. I'm not sure how this relates?

Shel

Post by **_TK** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:36 am

Hi Shel-

I think it's a combination of 1 and 2, if that's possible. I dont think Peter lost faith in Jesus. I think his faith in jesus was outweighed by his natural fear (i.e. unbelief).

you wrote:

I don't think that God is only going to do what He was always going to do. God sometimes does things when we ask Him to do them, and sometimes he doesn't do things if we don't ask that He may have done if we had asked Him. I'm not sure how this relates?

Because I would say that if we lack faith (or are consumed by unbelief), the chances are less (maybe zero)of God moving in response to our asking. Sure God can do what he wants, but faith is definitely a part of the equation.

Man, this is a good discussion.

TK

Post by **__id_2627** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:15 pm

TK wrote,

But I do believe that God responds to faith. I think that is a "law" that He set up.

What do you mean by a "law"? That sounds very WoF... I doubt there is a law, simply because I know of people that really had little faith and were healed. If it was a law then it could only be one way or the other, faith gets healing, lack of faith does not. I really don't think things are so cut and dry that they can be reduced to a law. It also makes things very mechanical rather than relational, and I don't think Gods works mechanically, at least I don't think that He prefers to work mechanically. I don't claim to know all the nuances of faith, but I do know that it extends from a very deep place that almost defies definition, like a child's trust in their earthly father who shows his trustworthiness. Faith stems from a very close relationship, I believe the more relational we are with God the more we move away from mechanics in our relating to him.

Shel

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:46 pm

What do you mean by a "law"? That sounds very WoF... I doubt there is a law, simply because I know of people that really had little faith and were healed

In Rom 3 Paul refers to this as "the law of faith" meaning a structure of some kind. To simply dismiss the fact that the degree of faith we have does in fact affect how God may respond is to overeact to many abuses within the WOF movement and throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Jesus said "daugter your faith has healed you" and "be it done unto you according to your faith" and he could do few miracles in one place because of the lack of faith. Zechariah's lips were sealed by the Holy Spirit because he doubted his wife Elizabeth could be pregnant. Why were his lips sealed?
IMO words are an expression of faith and sometimes really matter so i do watch my words.
Jesus although God incarnate did divest himself of his powers (Phil 2.7) and did no miracles until after he was filled with the HS at baptism. Therefore it may have been his perfect faith and being filled with the HS that was the power of his miracles. IF this is true and IF he became like us in every way, why is it impossible for us?
That does'nt make us "little gods" it would make us believers with strong faith doing what God would empower us to do.
The biggest mistake the WOF movement makes is their belief that healing and other miracles are guarenteed in the atonement, there is no guarentee but there are greater possibilities according to your faith, at least as i see it.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:00 pm

Steve7150-

Bro, you took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks for a better response than I could have mustered.

Shel- that is why i put the word "law" in quotes. I know its not really a law, as in a code, but God did set things up so that faith has some effect, as steve described.

As far as healing in the atonement goes, I understand this is a hot button issue. When I recently learned that AW Tozer (very probably) believed it, I am no longer so quick to dismiss it out of hand like I used to. However, I do not believe that it is necessary to believe that physical healing is guarateed in the atonement to argue that God does not want people to be sick.

TK

Post by **__id_2627** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:04 pm

I don't believe Paul was actually implying that there is a Law of faith, especially not in the way we think of something like the law of gravity. I believe in this passage he is contrasting the works of the Law and faith, and he says "law of faith" as sort of contradictory statement to contrast the difference between Law and faith. I think his tongue was firmly planted in his cheek... I'm not sure you will buy that, but that is how I see this passage. Its like saying the Law of Love, can their really be a law of love?

I do believe that our degree in which our trust is in God (our faith) does have an affect on how God responds. I personally do not dismiss this, it would be silly to do so. I think the question here is what is faith, and how are we suppose to manifest that faith in our relationship with God. It is a tough question.

Shel

Post by **_TK** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:30 pm

Shel wrote:

I think the question here is what is faith, and how are we suppose to manifest that faith in our relationship with God.

Amen to that.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:40 pm

- she is in need of healing, and gets up at some ungodly hour in the morning to watch Joyce Meyer.

I Tivo Joyce Meyer's and watch her often and really like her teachings. Not all WOF teachers are the same and to just label her and lump her with Benny Hinn isn't fair or accurate IMO.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:49 pm

I think the question here is what is faith, and how are we suppose to manifest that faith in our relationship with God. It is a tough question.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, meaning the "thing" we hope for is real to us or as Jesus said "believe you have received it" Mark 11.25.
So if we believe we have received it are we going to deny we have it with our words? So IMO you begin to manifest faith by believing God's promises and not denying that belief with your words. That's why the way Paul uses the word "but" in 2nd Cor 4 is great because he does'nt deny reality BUT he knows God is delivering despite appearances.