hey les-- i agree that being rationalistic doesnt disqualify-- Paul was as rational as they come and he spoke in tongues "more than all of you."
believe me, i am open to this- especially the more i learn about it.
i'll keep praying for it.
thx! TK
Speaking in Tongues
Has it ever been established here what the perfect is? Because it states in no uncertain terms that all these things will pass away when the perfect comes.
1 Cor. 13:
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Is the perfect in this life or in the next?
1 Cor. 13:
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Is the perfect in this life or in the next?
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_STEVE7150
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Has it ever been established here what the perfect is? Because it states in no uncertain terms that all these things will pass away when the perfect comes.
I have thought it to be His second coming or our perfect resurrected bodies.
I have thought it to be His second coming or our perfect resurrected bodies.
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Reason:
Reason:
What is the context? The entire section (verses 8-13) is about love:
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
When perfect love comes, when we are able to love completely, the gifts of tongues, knowldege, and prophecy will pass away. They will be no longer needed. Let's see why:
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Right now, our love for others is childish compared to what it will be when our love matures, and we have complete love. What we know of our fellow disciples in only partial knowledge. Some one may speak in tongues and reveal something about our brother or sister. Or some one may prophecy and reveal something. Or some one may have a "word of knowledge" from the Spirit, whereby something may become known concerning our fellow disciple. But all this knowledge is partial. When our love for our brothers and sisters is perfected, we shall know and understand them fully, just as God, whose love is perfect, knows and understands us fully.
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
When perfect love comes, when we are able to love completely, the gifts of tongues, knowldege, and prophecy will pass away. They will be no longer needed. Let's see why:
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Right now, our love for others is childish compared to what it will be when our love matures, and we have complete love. What we know of our fellow disciples in only partial knowledge. Some one may speak in tongues and reveal something about our brother or sister. Or some one may prophecy and reveal something. Or some one may have a "word of knowledge" from the Spirit, whereby something may become known concerning our fellow disciple. But all this knowledge is partial. When our love for our brothers and sisters is perfected, we shall know and understand them fully, just as God, whose love is perfect, knows and understands us fully.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidon, I appreciate your comments but I am not sure if it answers my question unless you are saying the perfect comes to some but not to all, or at least not to all at the same time. Is the perfect in this life time? And is the perfect really love and how we represent it? I am not sure what the perfect is. I know that Christ is perfect and the embodiment of love is Christ but is it something we can achieve in this life time?
Paul is evidently claiming to not as yet achieved what ever this perfect allows because he says:
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Know what? If the what is love then how can it possibly be attained in this life time? We can make it our goal but do we ever get there before God calls us home? And if the perfect is set to arrive in the life after death then it stands to reason we would not need prophecies, tongues and knowledge. I question whether it is love, or at least love alone. I admit, I am befuddled on this one.
Paul is evidently claiming to not as yet achieved what ever this perfect allows because he says:
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Know what? If the what is love then how can it possibly be attained in this life time? We can make it our goal but do we ever get there before God calls us home? And if the perfect is set to arrive in the life after death then it stands to reason we would not need prophecies, tongues and knowledge. I question whether it is love, or at least love alone. I admit, I am befuddled on this one.
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Reason:
Reason:
Paul didn't address the question as to when perfect love shall come.
So I cannot answer that question scripturally. But since the gifts of tongues, knowledge, and prophecy will pass away when that perfect love comes, and they haven't yet done so, and since Paul stated elsewhere that the ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers will continue until we all come into the unity of the faith, and to perfectiion, my guess is that, though we are in that process now, it will not be completed until Jesus returns and puts on the finishing touches.
So perhaps none will achieve perfect love until our Lord returns and we share in the first resurrection. I can only speculate, but I don't know. Either way we should press on toward the goal of the high calling in Christ Jesus. In either case, we are on the road to perfection, including perfect love!
So I cannot answer that question scripturally. But since the gifts of tongues, knowledge, and prophecy will pass away when that perfect love comes, and they haven't yet done so, and since Paul stated elsewhere that the ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers will continue until we all come into the unity of the faith, and to perfectiion, my guess is that, though we are in that process now, it will not be completed until Jesus returns and puts on the finishing touches.
So perhaps none will achieve perfect love until our Lord returns and we share in the first resurrection. I can only speculate, but I don't know. Either way we should press on toward the goal of the high calling in Christ Jesus. In either case, we are on the road to perfection, including perfect love!
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Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Some months ago I poised the question as to whether or not Christ Jesus was and is the perfect. I am not saying that the perfect used here in 1 Corinthians is another word for Jesus but the concept may be exactly that. At that time I presented a reference from Hebrews and since then have found even more references.
Hebrews 2:10
[ Bringing Many Sons to Glory ] For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 7:11
[ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:19
for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Hebrews 2:10
[ Bringing Many Sons to Glory ] For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 7:11
[ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:19
for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
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_Christopher
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I currently see it the pretty much the same way Paidion does with the Eph 4 passage as support.
Eph 4:11-14
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
NKJV
I tend to think the "perfect" is the same as the "perfect man", i.e. the body of Christ perfected. There won't be any need for prophesy or tongues when "that which is in part" is "done away with".
I suspect that we will get closer and closer as time marches on, but the perfect will not come until Jesus comes.
Just my very humble opinion.
Eph 4:11-14
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
NKJV
I tend to think the "perfect" is the same as the "perfect man", i.e. the body of Christ perfected. There won't be any need for prophesy or tongues when "that which is in part" is "done away with".
I suspect that we will get closer and closer as time marches on, but the perfect will not come until Jesus comes.
Just my very humble opinion.
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Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
In a round-about-way I do agree with Paidon and Christopher. Not trying to sound wishy washy here just coming at it from another angle. It is difficult for me simply to say that we will get closer to this ideal, at least so it seems in my own life. I say this because no matter how I try it seems I take one step forward and two steps back. Is this the way others of you feel as well? I am reminded of Pauls lengthy statement where he says he does what he does not want to do...
May God have mercy on me, like Paul, a wretched man.
May God have mercy on me, like Paul, a wretched man.
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Reason: