replacement theology

End Times
_Ely
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Post by _Ely » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Allyn (sorry for the shortening),

Would you mind if I humbly bowed-out of this now? The only reason I got involved in this thread was to just clarify to Christopher that not all dispensationalists think in the same way on all issues.

I'm neither qualified not inclined to get into an in-depth discussion on this issue. If in your opinion, my position seems unclear, contradictiory and/or riddled with holes, then fair enough, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to think like I think on this issue.

but like I've said elsewhere, if I'm right, I just hope you will personally join me in making pilgrimage to Jerusalem to worship Yeshua in the Millennial Kingdom! :shock: :wink:

in Christ,
Ely
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:49 pm

I'm ok with that Ely. I was about to say something like that myself. I don't feel real comfortable debating as they usually don't wind up with good results. Stay well brother.
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_Ely
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Post by _Ely » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm

Allyn wrote:Stay well brother.
You too bro. See you in the Jerusalem. Yoiks!!!! :D
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:21 pm

Anything that leads to the Master.
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_kaufmannphillips
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reply to steve7150

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:14 pm

Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your response and for the reference.
[steve:]The problem is that Hebrews says the Old Covenant was abolished....

[emmet:]Could I trouble you for the verse reference here?

[steve:]Sure Emmet, " By calling this covenant new , he has made the first one obsolete , and what is obsolete and aging will soon disapear." Heb 8.13
Technically, that verse does not "abolish" the old covenant, but merely describes an imminent disappearance in light of its being old and worn out.

One could argue with the writer about the validity of his argument - seeing as the new covenant with Israel did not cause the old covenant with Abraham to lose its place, and the new covenant with David did not cause the older covenants to disappear. But of course, most Christians will not argue with the writer of Hebrews - though evidence is especially lacking for who that writer was, or why that writer should be treated as authoritative or perfectly trustworthy.

Shalom,
Emmet
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_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:23 am

kaufmannphillips wrote:Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your response and for the reference.
[steve:]The problem is that Hebrews says the Old Covenant was abolished....

[emmet:]Could I trouble you for the verse reference here?

[steve:]Sure Emmet, " By calling this covenant new , he has made the first one obsolete , and what is obsolete and aging will soon disapear." Heb 8.13
Technically, that verse does not "abolish" the old covenant, but merely describes an imminent disappearance in light of its being old and worn out.

One could argue with the writer about the validity of his argument - seeing as the new covenant with Israel did not cause the old covenant with Abraham to lose its place, and the new covenant with David did not cause the older covenants to disappear. But of course, most Christians will not argue with the writer of Hebrews - though evidence is especially lacking for who that writer was, or why that writer should be treated as authoritative or perfectly trustworthy.

Shalom,
Emmet
This verse seems to abolish the old covenant:

Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.
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_kaufmannphillips
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reply to Sean

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:12 pm

Hello, Sean,

Thank you for your response. Please pardon my tardy reply :( .
This verse seems to abolish the old covenant:

Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.
This citation is perhaps better suited to the intended purpose, though it addresses only the sacrificial system, and not the entire covenant.

On the other hand, the verb rendered "abolishes" here might be translated more simply as "takes up." In classical Greek literature, this could be construed as "takes away" or "does away with," but it also could be used in the modern sense of accepting an endeavor (as in "she takes up jogging in the springtime"). The writer may be indicating that Jesus accepts the forms of the Torah in order to establish his obedience, which was the desired result.

But in either case, Hebrews is a questionable source for doctrine, of unknown authorship or provenance, and relatively late to be accepted as scripture by some parts of the church. Yet I should expect that many Christians will be disinclined to question it, due to canonical tradition.

Shalom,
Emmet
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:52 pm

But in either case, Hebrews is a questionable source for doctrine, of unknown authorship or provenance, and relatively late to be accepted as scripture by some parts of the church. Yet I should expect that many Christians will be disinclined to question it, due to canonical tradition.

Emmet, I think most scholars accept that Hebrews was written either by Paul or a traveling companion of his like Luke or Barnabas or Apollos. And it was'nt written that late, presumably in the 60s. So i don't see any reason to call it's doctrine questionable.
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_kaufmannphillips
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reply to steve7150

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:32 pm

Hi, Steve!
Emmet, I think most scholars accept that Hebrews was written either by Paul or a traveling companion of his like Luke or Barnabas or Apollos. And it was'nt written that late, presumably in the 60s. So i don't see any reason to call it's doctrine questionable.
I think that most responsible scholars will acknowledge that there is no firm evidence for identifying the person who wrote Hebrews. The letter features argumentation and imagery that is uncommon to Pauline standards, and the IVP Dictionary article states that the letter's Greek style is "far superior in vocabulary and sentence construction to that of Paul." My own skills in Greek are insufficient to make such a judgment, but I expect the scholarship in the IVP series to trend toward the moderate or conservative end of things. The fleeting reference to Timothy in the close of the letter (13:23) does not demonstrate companionship with Paul, nor can it be taken for granted that this Timothy is the same individual known from the Pauline corpus.

Comments in the early church reveal a diversity of opinion about the author of the letter, and I would expect that if someone of blessed memory like Luke or Barnabas had authored it, the halo would have remained with the document, so to speak. Even lesser figures like Jude and Clement received documents attached to their memory, so for Hebrews to have survived with a cloud of doubt around its authorship, it suggests that the author was rather an unremarkable figure in the early church.

It seems, from internal evidence (2:3), that the author did not have direct experience of Jesus of Nazareth - which automatically suggests a greater margin of differentiation between his perspectives and the actual historical character of Jesus. Like Paul, the author's understanding of Jesus is formed in circumstances removed from the historical ministry of Jesus, and as such their Christologies have a greater likelihood of innovation and susceptibility to extraneous influence. Paul's Christology seems to have been processed in light of his personal mystical experience and his Hellenistic environment. The author of Hebrews appears to have processed his Christology through a creative engagement of the biblical text; this may have been the fruit of his own study, or inherited in whole or in part from others. But both processes are quite naturally open to deviation from the precedent and perspective of Jesus himself.

When I referred to the document's late acceptance, I was referring to its canonization process, not its date of composition (about which there apparently is no broad scholarly consensus). The canonical candidacy of Hebrews appears to have been debated for a long time, lasting into the fourth or perhaps even the fifth century.

Shalom,
Emmet
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:56 pm

It seems, from internal evidence (2:3), that the author did not have direct experience of Jesus of Nazareth - which automatically suggests a greater margin of differentiation between his perspectives and the actual historical character of Jesus. Like Paul, the author's understanding of Jesus is formed in circumstances removed from the historical ministry of Jesus, and as such their Christologies have a greater likelihood of innovation and susceptibility to extraneous influence. Paul's Christology seems to have been processed in light of his personal mystical experience and his Hellenistic environment. The author of Hebrews appears to have processed his Christology through a creative engagement of the biblical text; this may have been the fruit of his own study, or inherited in whole or in part from others. But both processes are quite naturally open to deviation from the precedent and perspective of Jesus himself.


Emmet, You're entitled to have any opinion about Paul you wish but the apostles who knew Jesus and knew Paul accepted him as a fellow apostle. Therefore they must have believed that Paul's experience with the resurrected Christ was as real as their's was.
Re Hebrews my guess is that Apollos wrote it since it has several Pauline phrases 5.12,7.25,12.22-23 and several references to the OT that Paul himself used also. Yet in Heb 2.3 makes it sound that Paul himself isn't the author as well as the style being perhaps to eloquent for Paul. So it must have been someone heavily influenced by Paul, perhaps Luke,Barnabas or Apollos. Luke being a gentile, IMO would probably not write such a forceful letter to jewish christians in Jerusalem. In Acts 18.24 Apollos is called "an eloquent man and he was mighty in the scriptures."
Paul mentioned Apollos teachings in 1 Cor 1.12,3.5,3.6 and apparently in 1 Cor 16.12 it sounds like they had some kind of a relationship as well as the several references to his teachings.
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