“if we do disagree, so what? Only the big guy's opinion matters in the end” (steve 7150)
I am glad you are not taking a dogmatic stance on UR or universalism, I believe God is fair and loving and abounding in compassion, but I don’t know how much closer we could come to the original lie than Universalism;
‘the Serpent said to the woman “you surely shall not die” (Or, “Except for suffering awhile in hell, you surely shall not die”)
The lie made a big difference the first time, and the lie is no less deadly now as it was then. God’s opinion was the same in the beginning (below) as it will be in the end;
‘For in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die’
We are as good as dead, and unless we repent, and God changes His mind, we stay that way.
‘If i understand your view correctly i think you believe God's judgment on sinners in this life are final’ (7150)
I believe there is a coming Judgment of ‘all’ people (everyone dead or alive).
Although my theological position needn’t be dogmatic about it, some ‘may possibly’ have already received Judgment, sentencing and annihilation already. God may have already judged that it is not necessary to bring them back up, or to have kept them alive (or asleep) somewhere. God may have decided that some have already been punished enough in the earthly realm. It is something to consider, although I don’t necessarily believe so, it is possible.
After all annihilation is the view understood by most of Israel prior to the Gospels.
I believe God's judgment on sinners in this life is determined, meaning ‘all’ sinners are guilty. And death is the result and wage(s) for sin, and the second death is just that - death.
I believe there is a coming Judgment of ‘all’ people, and everyone* will be at one of the two judgments’
Some, or ‘maybe’ all, will have the opportunity to repent and accept that God provided a sacrifice for sin’s, I have always maintained that this is ‘possible’.
Before embracing this ‘possibility’, there are a couple of biblical considerations/ principles that should be taken into account;
This world is a test
The Gospel is a test; of the heart .
God is looking for - Faith – Trust - Obedience – Love – Fruit – etc.
God is looking for those who - Seek Him – Fear him – Honor Him – Follow Him
So a post- mortem belief would render the above ‘desires of God’ unfulfilled (that’s right - desires) with those who repent post-mortem.
Why does God go through such trouble, and focus so much time and scripture on these values and prerequisites? He must have a good reason, so what is that reason?
Ans. ‘
Because this world is a test’
A test has purpose, you don’t run a test if the results don’t matter or have purpose, and conclusions.
(Note; I am ‘not’ speaking of those who had no opportunity, nor are we talking about the innocent or righteous,
we are speaking of those who ‘did’ have opportunity, some have had plenty of opportunity, some defiant and sinful as possible.).
Another principle of God’s Soteriology is ‘
His quiet hidden manner’. Why does God keep himself hidden?
This may seem like no huge thing, because we are used to not seeing God. But it is the greatest question in the Universe,
God could solve every single question we have by just appearing to us, but God does not do so – Why?
(The only reasonable motive is that it is His way of testing us, our hearts, to see if we will respond to the evidence we have, to see if we will behave when God is not looking. I don’t think God has a test for the sake of curiosity; I guess those who ‘want’ to pass will pass the test, because they feared God and loved God.
To be fair it ‘seems’ that God will preach the Gospel to all (He could) even the dead, as 1Peter 3:19 and 4:6 note. As much as this may be true, it may not 'be' as some perceive. The Gospel may be proclaimed to the dead, but will it be Jesus? If it is, would anyone recognize Him as Jesus? They didn’t recognize him on Earth, so maybe God still tests their hearts with the Gospel while they are in prison (or wherever).
After all why would the Gospel’s purpose change, the purpose is that people believe it – if it was obvious then it would no longer be faith. What is faith, a demonstration of our trust – this is a test of our heart and a test of our will to accept what is true and reasonable, which also means denying our selfishness self-assuredness.
Remember Jesus may not be glowing, or float over head when He proclaims the Gospel in the nether world, He may be just as He was here - of no particular stature or likeness. Maybe someone would appear to them as Jonas did, or some other way, but scripture does not say anything concerning this possibility. But what scripture does clearly layout is a TEST, and life itself is a variety of tests.
Why would God abandon the test just for some or because we have already died. Will the Gospel be the obvious only choice post-mortem, or will some still believe another lie?
God seems to have given many people (living and dead) plenty enough warning (especially in the western world) with churches on most every corner and crosses on every grave, it would be hard for someone living in the western world to have not had a chance to consider the Cross, God or the Bible.
Should God extend our lives to 140 years, maybe 200 yrs to give us more time to repent?
Maybe God should make the Good news a little easier to believe, He could perform more miracles!
I think God set up the test the way He wanted, and that is all God feels He needed to do to get what He wanted.
I believe it is possible some may have ‘already’ received their judgment and will on That Day be only receiving their sentencing. Why, because it seems many rebellious and stubborn people have already been given enough evidences, there were warnings, and they were unwilling to repent, maybe God knew they would not repent.
I don’t know if some (or many) have already been annihilated, but I have pondered this in relation to UR. I believe it is possible, as
the number of scriptures describing annihilation and destruction are overwhelming, much more supportable an idea than UR, yet just as untraditional!
(It could be possible that some have already spent enough time being in the grave, Sheol or wherever, and God may have already eliminated them. It is a ‘possibility’, if we’re going to talk about possibilities. There are ‘numerous’ passages that equate men to grass, wheat, vapors, animals etc. And many passages that really give no sign of hope for those whom God purposely destroyed in scripture. Nothing says God couldn’t)
