Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

Paidion, I didn't take time to verify it but as I recall Jesus warned of hell more than anyone so Paul's failure to mention it is irrelevant to me.

Irrelevant? How could it be irrelevant? If Paul was preaching the "gospel" as it is preached today, wouldn't he have warned his hearers of hell?
Perhaps the reason he didn't mention it was that he preached the true gospel, that Jesus died to deliver man from his sins, rather than the later concept that He died to deliver man from hell.

You insist that kolasis means correction, not punishment. Where did you get this?

I get it chiefly from the meaning of its verbal form. "kolazO". Abott-Smith's Lexicon of the New Testament, states that this word originates from "kalos" (docked), and that it means

1. to curtail, dock, prune
2. to check, restrain,
3. to chastise, correct, punish.

The word "punish" is okay, if one holds the view that punishment is basically remedial. But if one's concept of "punish" is to "give a person what he deserves", then "punish" is not a suitable translation.

Both Philo and Josephus used it for punishment.

I would be interested in your references ---- where in Philo's and Josephus' works, would one find this?

Aside from Jesus' use of the word in Matthew 25:46 the only other place it is used in the NT, 1 Jn. 4:18, it would not make sense to translate it correction rather than punishment.

How does "fear has correction" make no sense, while "fear has punishment" does??????

I John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has correction, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

He who fears is not perfected in love. To be perfected in love, a person must be corrected. So "fear has correction" or perhaps today we would say "fear requires correction." This makes sense to me.

Rotherham translated the phrase in I John 4:25 as "fear hath correction."

[mgarrett]

Here is a scripture which I think may relate to Damon's thought about the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the lake of fire.

John 16:7-12
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Todd

[Guest]

Damon,

It may seem that this thread is "going all over the place," but we have been discussing the judgment and the resurrection from the beginning. It is all related to understanding "Alternative Views of Hell."

I wasn't criticizing. I was just noticing how many different topics were being brought into play as the thread went along. *shrugs*

I am intrigued with your explanation of John the Baptist's statement about unquenchable fire. I think there may be some merit to it. I would disagree though about the timing; I would think that it would come for the everyone (just and the unjust) at the same time - at the Day of Pentecost.

I don't see the unjust being affected immediately on the Day of Pentecost. I do agree that there is a connection, though. IMO, it connects with the "judgment" now being upon the House of God, from Pentecost forward, albeit not yet on the "ungodly and the sinner."

I appreciate the diversity of thought from everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am trying to determine for myself the truth about Universalism and I am leaning strongly that way now but have not made up my mind just yet. I am trying to make all the pieces fit.

Here's another thought: What if the "eternal" in Jesus statement in Matt 25:46 is referring to the time only up until the "end" as described by Paul in this verse.

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Todd

Continuing on, the last enemy to be put under His feet is death. How so? When "death" is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:12-15).

By the way, this passage in Revelation mentions "the sea" versus "death and hell." In case you didn't understand the symbolism already, "the sea" in this passage is symbolic for all those who have undergone baptism. That is, those who are destined for eternal life.

One thing that might be confusing about the various scriptures concerning the state of the dead is the dichotomy between being burned to ashes (Mal. 4:1-3) versus being in torment (Rev. 14:11; etc.). IMO, the way to understand this dichotomy properly is that the wicked people's bodies are burned up to ashes whereas their spirits continue to suffer torment in the lake of fire.

As far as the doctrine of universalism goes, the reason why the wicked suffer torment in the lake of fire, which is the Holy Spirit, is because they are being made supernaturally sensitive to the effects of the sins that they have made against others. The Holy Spirit is, after all, the Spirit of Love (2 Tim. 1:7). There will certainly be some who have sinned in ignorance who will honestly choose to repent of their sins once they experience this pain. (In other words, there is some truth to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory!)

But what of the rest? Consider this. God calls us to obey Him out of love, trusting that we will be rewarded for acting righteously. There is an element of faith involved, in other words. If the only reason that the wicked would repent would be to escape the pain of torment from the lake of fire, then that's not love and that's not faith/trust. Therefore, there is nothing else that God can do to reconcile them to Himself, because God won't force anyone to obey Him unwillingly.

Right?

Damon

[mgarrett]

Continuing on, the last enemy to be put under His feet is death. How so? When "death" is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:12-15)..

Yes. This happens when the last person has been resurrected.

By the way, this passage in Revelation mentions "the sea" versus "death and hell." In case you didn't understand the symbolism already, "the sea" in this passage is symbolic for all those who have undergone baptism. That is, those who are destined for eternal life.

Yes again. I agree. That is also what is meant by "having part in the first resurrection" in Rev 20:6. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection. We "have part" in it when we are baptized; For we are Buried with him by baptism into His death and we are also risen with him (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4), thus "having part" in His resurrection. This makes it clear why it is said that the second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection.

But what of the rest? Consider this. God calls us to obey Him out of love, trusting that we will be rewarded for acting righteously. There is an element of faith involved, in other words. If the only reason that the wicked would repent would be to escape the pain of torment from the lake of fire, then that's not love and that's not faith/trust. Therefore, there is nothing else that God can do to reconcile them to Himself, because God won't force anyone to obey Him unwillingly.

Right?

Damon

Right. God will not force anyone to obey him. But it seems at some point everyone will because "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to God"

Todd

[Guest]

Yes it's true that "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord." But Paul said only with the Holy Spirit can we confess Jesus as Lord. But if everyone who confesses Jesus as Lord has the Holy Spirit are'nt they part of the kingdom of God for as Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself will fall which means you can't have the Holy Spirit and not be part of God's kingdom. Hmm, Todd that sounds like universalism,what do you think?

[Guest]

Continuing on, the last enemy to be put under His feet is death. How so? When "death" is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:12-15)..

Yes. This happens when the last person has been resurrected.

Er, how do you get that from death being cast into the lake of fire?

You seem to be saying that everyone will be resurrected, and that's how death will be destroyed. Although I agree that everyone will be resurrected, I believe that everyone will be resurrected to face judgment. (Cf. Dan. 12:2; Heb. 9:27) This resurrection will take place over a thousand year period, after which all of the incorrigibly wicked will then have been cast into the lake of fire.

God will not force anyone to obey him. But it seems at some point everyone will because "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to God"

How do we know that that means everyone who has ever lived, as opposed to everyone who is alive at that point?

Also, this quotation originally comes from Isaiah 45:23. Notice that the context is Israel, not all people. (See verses 17 and 25.) Paul cites this passage in Romans 14:11 as meaning that everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, but we already know that there will be those who stand before that same judgment seat who will be cast into the lake of fire (Mat. 25:31-33 and 41-46).

Damon

[Guest]

The subject of correction seems to get much consideration but virtually nothing is mentioned a of rather prominent aspect of God's character, namely, justice. What do we know of this? We can certainly adduce numerous examples from the narrative of scripture. Consider Sodom and Gomorrah. The Noahic flood. Thousands slain for sexual immorality and idol worship. Death by stoning for adultery and even for gathering firewood on the sabbath. Were these punishments carried out for the purpose of correction? Could it have been Justice, or was God unjust? Is God always the same or has He now repented and become a Christian?

Certainly God disciplines His children for correction (Hebrews 12). It has been noted that all the threats in the NT are addressed to believers (Paul in 1 Cor. 10, for example), but does God correct unbelievers with discipline?

Paul's epistles, great as they are, should not be used to interpret Jesus but rather we should understand Paul in the light of what Jesus said. It is too bad that we do not come to God and love Him for His sake, but almost everyone comes to him initially for the sake of self - to avoid the consequences. Jesus understood this of course, thus His dire warnings to sinners to "save yourselves". It is beyond belief to me to think His warnings were rather hollow, and this from the one who is "the way, the truth, and the life. Knowing human nature, as Jesus so perfectly did, how many sinners would repent when confronted with the universalist message?

[Guest]

Homer, you mean primarily the threat of eternal hell is what convinced most believers to accept Jesus? I hope not because that is a contradiction to how God's charactor is presented in scripture. John tells us God is LOVE ,not that he is just loving but that he is LOVE. And yes God is just so destruction is one thing especially when everyone get's raised to jusgement but eternal torment is quite different then justice. Justice is matching the punishment to the crime. Eternal punishment for a wrong decision made in a brief lifetime is not matching the punishment to the crime by any rational standard. So,so many people have no clear idea of who Jesus is during their lifetimes . Buddaists,muslims,hindus and countless other belief systems have no idea who Jesus is. Are they out of luck , they just were in the wrong place or in the wrong culture or in the wrong family ,is becoming a Christian mostly based on the luck of the draw?
Jesus did not use the word FIRE in a literal way as any student of the OT knows God's fire is symbolic for judgement. He spoke to Pharisees who did'nt believe in a burning hell therefore Jesus used metaphor's which he knew they understood. Paul and Peter also understood that the FIRE referred to by Jesus was'nt a literal burning of the flesh or they surely would have repeated this DIRE WARNING to their listeners but they did'nt.
So either Paul and Peter are incredibly irresponsible or Jesus was speaking metaphorically.
To think Jesus meant eternal punishment and for Paul and Peter and James and the writer of Hebrews not to repeat it is BEYOND IRRESPONSIBLE.

[mgarrett]

Continuing on, the last enemy to be put under His feet is death. How so? When "death" is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:12-15)..

Yes. This happens when the last person has been resurrected.

Er, how do you get that from death being cast into the lake of fire?

You seem to be saying that everyone will be resurrected, and that's how death will be destroyed.

Everyone agrees that the context of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection. Notice what Paul says.....

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Here it is plain that the same "all" that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ - that is everyone. Paul makes no distinction between believers and unbelievers - not in the entire chapter. So can we then assume that when Paul says, "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" applies to that same "all"? And when he says, "death is swallowed up in Victory" it applies to the same "all"?

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Steve.

To throw my two cents' worth in again, might I suggest that you're reasoning based on your own emotional take on the Scriptures rather than on what they say. That's not the best way to understand what's true and what's not.

Consider this. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, but nevertheless, why should a single lifetime's worth of righteousness on Jesus' part merit eternal life on the part of all those who believe in Him? Is that "just"?

I'm playing devil's advocate here to show that your reasoning isn't enough to prove your point. However, as far as those who have never heard the Gospel in this lifetime, what makes you think that God would consign them to eternal torment, if the doctrine of universalism isn't true?

Notice Isaiah 29:18 and 22-24. There will be those among the physical descendants of Israel who never put their trust in God as they should have, and instead complained - especially those who left Egypt. There will also be those Israelites who were given the Holy Spirit who "erred" and strayed, in ignorance, from the narrow way that leads to life. According to this passage, these people will actually have the opportunity in the future to get it right! If God makes allowance for people like these, why would He not also make allowance for those who never heard the Gospel in this life?

It's something to think about, anyway.

Damon