My Case for eternal Hell

[Ambassador791]

The fact he is judged and apparently has to address his debt in whatever way God designs is not a substitute atonement for Christ, it is a process of judgment designed by God, probably for a purpose beyond just punishment.

True, nothing could ever be a substitute for the atonment, on that we agree. but after having passed through the "process of judgment designed by God" (wrath) we could not rightly say that he was saved (from wrath).

[steve7150]

The fact he is judged and apparently has to address his debt in whatever way God designs is not a substitute atonement for Christ, it is a process of judgment designed by God, probably for a purpose beyond just punishment.

True, nothing could ever be a substitute for the atonment, on that we agree. but after having passed through the "process of judgment designed by God" (wrath) we could not rightly say that he was saved (from wrath).

Judgment is wrath unless you see God as some kind of a fire breathing monster who is never ever satisfied, simply wanting revenge for all eternity. As Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" and Paul said "it's the goodness of God that draws men to repentence." Therefore again and again we differ on how we view God and how we view justice. Christ is the judge and is present at the lake of fire. We see in Heb 11 people who never met Christ in the heavenly hall of fame , therefore he will judge people based on the fact all authority has been given to him. Note "all authority" means how he judges is up to him yet still his judgment is still subject to his Father's will. In the NT we are told what the Father's will is.

[Singalphile]

As far as I know, this is the complete list of verses that could understandably be thought to teach a punishment of everlasting conscious suffering.

In order of appearance (and without context!):

1. Isaiah 66:24 Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched.

2. Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

3. Matthew 18:18 It is better for you to enter life maimed or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire.

4. Matthew 25:41 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

5. Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

6. Mark 9:44 ... into the unquenchable fire* where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
(*Note: The verse change actually occurs there in what seems to be the middle of the sentence. There is also apparently some question about the authenticity of this verse and the next.)

7. Mark 9:46 ...where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

8. Mark 9:48 ...where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
(Note: The previous three are repeats, and of course they all quote #1 above.)

9. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 ... They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.
(Note: If this verse is used, then only certain translations that add extra words and/or punctuation, such as the NIV shown here, will be used.)

10. Revelation 14:11 ...and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.

11. Revelation 20:10 ... and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That would be the case for the traditional view, I think. (If there are more, I would like to know.) Close examination and context is not the traditionalists' friend, imo.

This equip.org article by a Robert A. Peterson is as good a case for eternal conscious punishment as any I've come across. While making his case, he attempts to present and refute an annihilationist response. I appreciate the good faith effort, and I think he does a fine job of briefly explaining the weaknesses of annihilationism (my preferred view). He doesn't discuss universal reconciliation.

I sure do look forward to Steve's book. I hope it's still in the works (but that's okay if not ). I reckon it will present the best possible honest case for the various views, and that will be neat.

Edited: As I find other verses that anyone uses for ET (within reason), I will add them here.

[Paidion]

Math 25/46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How long is the punishment of the wicked?. The punishment of the wicked is contrasted directly with the length of the reward of the just. I know that there is some discussion of the meaning of “eternal”. The discussion about the meaning of eternal in regards to the lost ends here. In this context, eternal means forever, unless you think that we will only be with God for a season and then we will be separated from him. No. This could not be clearer. Jesus does not change the meaning of eternal inside of the same verse.

It is true that there is a parallel constrution in the sentence you quoted above, and that the Greek word "αιωνιος" does not have one meaning in the first instance, and another in the second. However, the adjective "αιωνιος" NEVER means "eternal." The root word is "αιων" (age),and thus "αιωνιος" often refers to a period of time which extends through an age. That age may be a life time, or a much shorter period. For example, according to the Septuagint translation of the OT into Greek, Jonah in his prayer stated, "I went down into the earth, whose bars are αιωνιος barriers." For Jonah, those barriers didn't continue eternally, but lasted 3 days and 3 nights!

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”.

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

But the clincher comes from the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by Chrysostom. He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (lasting for an age), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “ lasting” but in this case also “temporary.”

The second important matter is to realize that in Matthew 25:46, the Greek word translated as "punishment", that is, "κολασις" does not means "punishment" in the sense of penalty for wrongdoing. The Greek word for that is "τιμωρια" and is found in Hebrews 10:29. The word "κολασις" was used originally with reference to the pruning of trees. Later it was used figuratively to refer to correction of children (as well as adults). In order to avoid the confusion in translating both these words as "punishment" it might be wise to translate consistently translate "κολασις" as "correction" and "τιμωρια" as "penalty."

So with this in mind, it would not make sense to say that the goats go away to "eternal correction". For if their correction were eternal, then then there would never be a point at which their correction would be complete! But to translate it as "The will go away to lasting correction" or "throughout an age of correction" would make perfect sense.

"But the righteous to lasting life" or the "righteous througout an age of life". Now life which is "lasting" may be either temporary or eternal. In no way does the use of "lasting" imply that it MUST be temporary. "Lasting" simply means "lasting". There is nothing in its meaning that denotes a length of time, whether 3 days, 3 years, 3 centuries, 3 millenia, or forever. Even "But the righteous throughout the age of life" makes sense if "an age of life" refers to an everlasting age.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Jonah in his prayer stated, "I went down into the earth, whose bars are αιωνιος barriers." For Jonah, those barriers didn't continue eternally, but lasted 3 days and 3 nights!

Have you ever considered that the word might be used figuratively? That it felt like forever to Jonah?

The second important matter is to realize that in Matthew 25:46, the Greek word translated as "punishment", that is, "κολασις" does not means "punishment" in the sense of penalty for wrongdoing. The Greek word for that is "τιμωρια" and is found in Hebrews 10:29. The word "κολασις" was used originally with reference to the pruning of trees. Later it was used figuratively to refer to correction of children (as well as adults). In order to avoid the confusion in translating both these words as "punishment" it might be wise to translate consistently translate "κολασις" as "correction" and "τιμωρια" as "penalty."

Both Josephus and Philo spoke of kolasis as divine retribution.

"But the righteous to lasting life" or the "righteous througout an age of life". Now life which is "lasting" may be either temporary or eternal. In no way does the use of "lasting" imply that it MUST be temporary.

So by your own admission aionios may be used of something eternal! Aionios life and aionios punishment may last as short as three days or forever!

[Paidion]

Both Josephus and Philo spoke of kolasis as divine retribution.

Quote them ... including your proof that they used the word with the meaning of retribution.

[steve7150]

"But the righteous to lasting life" or the "righteous througout an age of life". Now life which is "lasting" may be either temporary or eternal. In no way does the use of "lasting" imply that it MUST be temporary.



So by your own admission aionios may be used of something eternal! Aionios life and aionios punishment may last as short as three days or forever!

User avatar
Homer





The "righteous" have immortality regardless of how "aionios" is applied to them.

[steve]

Hi Homer,

You wrote:

So by your own admission aionios may be used of something eternal! Aionios life and aionios punishment may last as short as three days or forever!

Could you tell me why you keep acting like it is up to Paidion to defend the lexical meaning of aionios? He has presented the same evidence numerous times, and every time you do the same thing—ignore it. When he quotes the examples of usage that prove his point, instead of conceding (or at least refuting) his point, you seem always to resort to, some ad hominem like, "So are you saying...?" or "Are you admitting...?"

You are acting like this is a game of "Gotcha!" rather than a serious inquiry into what the Bible teaches on one of the most important matters to the mass of mankind.

Paidion isn't making up his own definitions here. The definition for aionios as "long-lasting" is well-attested in the biblical and extra biblical usage. Kittel (Vol.1, 198f) writes: "Only in the light of the context can it be said whether aion means 'eternity' in the strict sense or simply 'remote' or 'extended' or 'uninterrupted time.'

Why not just accept it and abandon any line of argument that requires a different meaning?

You suggest that Jonah may have used it as a hyperbole. I believe this is possible. In fact, it may have frequently been used as a hyperbole (as we are usually doing when, in common speech, we use the word "forever"). If so, then it would be hard, in any cases you might cite, to argue that it is not, in those cases as well, being used as hyperbole.

[Singalphile]

I've looked at various online lexicons, concordances, and articles. I can tell you, as someone who will readily accept any of the three main views (or another) and who just wants to know which English words or concepts for kolasis or aionios are the best, it's not easy to tell for sure. I will say that I'm inclined to go with the majority opinion of Greek scholars. But perhaps "we don't know" is still the best, most honest position.

[Paidion]

Yes, Singalphile, lexicons, etc. can be helpful. But in the case of "αιωνιος", many lexicons give BOTH "age-long" and "eternal"as meanings, and for "κολασις", they give both "correction" and "penalty". I find that lexicons often give many multiple definitions of a Greek word, where there is only one or two primary meanings. The other "meanings" are often not meanings at all but possible translations of the word into English to make it read more smoothly. This practice can be misleading.

So I have concluded that it is better to search Greek texts, both biblical and other texts from the period 300 B.C. to 300 A.D. and see how the word was used. By doing this I have settled on "lasting" (or "long lasting") as a good rendering of "αιωνιος" and "correction" as a good rendering of "κολασις."