Did God die on the Cross?

[BrotherAlan]

Dear Jose,
Praise be to Jesus Christ!
Now and forever!

You wrote:

If logos is the pre-existent Jesus, and God is the Father, then John 1:1 would read something like this:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.
or
In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with the Father, and the Son was the Father.

If God in this verse is the Trinity, then we have the following:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity.

One other possible understanding of these verses—and the one which, I believe, is correct—is the following:
“In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God (i.e., God the Father), and the Word was God (i.e., God the Son).”

For, the word “God” can be properly used to stand for any one of the following: 1.) The Divine Essence (and the Trinity); 2.) God the Father; 3.) God the Son; 4.) God the Holy Spirit; 5.) The God-Man, Jesus Christ (i.e., God the Son, in so far as the Son is the personal subject of, and possessing, the human nature of Jesus Christ).

And, going back again to the idea that Jesus Christ did not pre-exist His conception in His Blessed Virgin Mother’s womb, there are, as stated earlier in this thread, a number of arguments based on Scriptural teachings which teach us the contrary.

First, it is to be noted that Jesus possessed glory before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb, according to His words, “Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.” (John 17:5)
But, one who possesses glory before His conception in his mother’s womb necessarily must exist prior to that conception (for, only an existing person can receive/possess glory).
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

Again, one who is eternal and yet is born of a human mother pre-existed his conception in that mother’s womb.
But, Jesus Christ is, simply speaking, eternal, according to the words, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Heb. 13:8) [Note: This verse cannot possibly refer to Jesus’ human nature, for His human nature, since it at one point did not exist, and now it does, and since it is, like all human natures, subject to motion and change, can not be said to be “the same yesterday, today, and forever.” Thus, this verse certainly is referring to Jesus, a Divine Person, in His Divine Nature.] Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

And, again,
Jesus saw Satan fall before His (Jesus’) conception in Blessed Mary’s womb, according to the words, “I saw Satan fall like lightning.” (Luke 10: 18)
But, one who sees something before his conception in his own mother’s womb necessarily really exists before said conception.
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

And, again,
Jesus existed before Abraham, according to the words, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)
But, one who existed before Abraham existed before Blessed Mary, a daughter of Abraham.
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

And, again,
Jesus existed before John the Baptist, according to the Baptist’s words, “He was before me.” (Jn. 1:30)
But, one who existed before John the Baptist existed before Jesus’ human conception in Blessed Mary’s womb; for, according to the Scriptures, i.e., Lk. 1:26-38, Jesus’ human conception in Blessed Mary’s womb occurred in the sixth month of the pregnancy of the Baptist in his own mother’s womb.
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

Yet again,
Jesus’ origins are from of old, from ancient times, according to the prophecy of Micah 5:2.
But, one whose origins are from of old, from ancient times, pre-existed Blessed Mary.
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

Still more,
One who is the “Alpha and the Omega”, the “First and the Last”, “Beginning and the End”, i.e., the beginning and end of all created things, exists before Blessed Mary, for she is a creature.
But, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, according to Rev. 22:13.
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

Furthemore,
One who knows all things is God, and God existed before Blessed Mary began to exist.
But, Jesus knows all things, according to Peter’s words, “You (Jesus) know all things.” (John 21:17)
Thus, Jesus existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

Lastly,
Jesus is the true God, according to both the implicit and even explicit teachings of many of the Scriptures (some of which have already been given); for example, “Now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)
But, one who is the true God is a personal being who existed before Blessed Mary.
Thus, Jesus is a Person who existed before His conception in Blessed Mary’s womb.

So, with these, and many other Scriptures, we can clearly see that Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary, is also the Son of God, and the true God, and thus pre-existed His virginal conception in the womb of that glorious and blessed Virgin, Mary.

In Christ, the Eternal Son of God and Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Paidion]

Hi Paidion,

If logos is the pre-existent Jesus, and God is the Father, then John 1:1 would read something like this:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father

I can't see that this follows from Jesus being the Logos.

First, I will quote other passages which indicate that Jesus is the Logos, and then I will attempt to show the meaning of John 1:1 in light of this:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:12,13)

This passage states the the Logos of God is LIVING. Not only living, but a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intents of the heart. How can something other than a conscious being DISCERN the thoughts and intents of a person's heart? How can all things be open to the eyes of a non-person? How can we give account some day to an impersonal logos?

… since you have been begotten again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)

Have we disciples of Christ not been begotten again through Christ? Is He not the imperishable seed of God. This passage says that we have been begotten again through the LIVING and abiding Logos of God. Is that not the Son of God?

Finally, John the author of Revelation sees a vision of Christ. He states that His NAME is "The Logos of God":

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (Re 19:11-13)

And now for John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

It would be natural for anyone unfamiliar with the Greek construction to ask, "How can the Word be WITH God and also BE God?"

The first thing to notice is that the first occurrence of "God" has the article before it, whereas the second does not. In the New testament, in each and every case where the Greek word "θεος" (theos) has the article "ὁ" (the), and no other modifiers (that is "ὁ θεος") it refers to God the Father. It never has any other referent or meaning. Thus in the phrase "The Logos was with God", the word "God" refers to the Father.

The word "προς"(pros) translated as "with" does not mean "with" in the sense of proximity. A different Greek word "μετα" (meta) is used for that. For example, in the clause "Then Jesus went with them" (Matt 26:36), the word for "with" is "μετα" (meta). Usually the word "προς"(pros) means "toward", and in a sense, it does in John 1:1. Sometimes when I've written something in this forum, someone has written, "I'm with Paidion on this one." That is the sense of "with" that is used in John 1:1. The Son of God, the Logos is WITH the Father in all matters. They are in complete harmony.

But what is meant with the statement "The Logos was God". Is the Son of God the Father? No. In this statement the word "θεος" (theos) does not have the article. Often a word without an article is translated with the English indefinite articel "a". Thus the New World Translation, the translation of Jehovah's witnesses,render the clause as "and the word was a god". This, also is incorrect.

Whatever we may think of Martin Luther, he was a great Greek scholar. Concerning this phrase, he put the matter very succinctly:

The lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism.

Let me explain. Sabellianism was a form of Modalism. It pre-dated Trinitarianism. The Modalist belief is that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They compare it to a human actor who wears three different masks and assumes three different roles. So the Modalist would say, "John 1:1 is clear. The Son of God, the Word, IS God. There's only one God—one Person, and Jesus is He." But as Martin Luther affirmed, the lack of an article is against this position. If Modalism were true the sentence would read:

και ὁ λογος ήν ὁ θεος (and the Logos was the God). But that is not what was written.

It is a common misconception that Arius believed that the Son was created by the Father as a lesser god. I think that is a misunderstanding of Arius, but that is another discussion. Jehovah's witnesses believe that the Son was the highest created angle. So for them, the Logos was with God and was a god. If this view were correct, the sentence would read:

και ὁ λογος ήν θεος (and the logos was a god). But that is not what was written.

Here is what was written:

και θεοςήν ὁ λογος (literally "and God was the Logos).

Ths change in the e word order was common in the Greek of the time. The noun before the verb indicated a quality or characteristic of what is denoted by the other noun.

Here are two other examples from the New Testament of this same reversal:

ὁ λογος ὁ σος ἀληθεια ἐστιν (John 17:17)
Literally "the word the one of you truth is", that is, "Your word is truth." The word before the verb (truth) is a characterstic of God's word.

ὁ θεος ἀγαπη ἐστιν (I John 4:8, 4:16)
Literally "The God love is", that is, "God is love." The word before the verb (love) is a characteristic of God.

So in the clause from John 1:1, namely "θεοςήν ὁ λογος ", θεος is a characteristic of the Logos. It's the kind of thing the Logos is. A crude translation might be "The Logos was God-stuff" or we could simply translate it as "The Logos was divine".

[Jose]

First, I will quote other passages which indicate that Jesus is the Logos, and then I will attempt to show the meaning of John 1:1 in light of this:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:12,13)

This passage states the the Logos of God is LIVING. Not only living, but a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intents of the heart. How can something other than a conscious being DISCERN the thoughts and intents of a person's heart? How can all things be open to the eyes of a non-person? How can we give account some day to an impersonal logos?

This example from Hebrews does not prove to me that Jesus is the word being spoken of. I don't think this is meant to be taken literally. Is a person sharp like a sword that pierces marrow? Isn't this more likely talking about the effect God's word has on us when we come in contact with it? God's word can be alive and discerning if it is a "personification" without it needing to be a literal person. If I speak or write, my words are alive and active. My words can bless or curse, edify or destroy. My logos is my expression, my thoughts, my words, and in a sense ARE me and who I am, but my logos is not another person. I believe it is the same with God.

… since you have been begotten again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)

Have we disciples of Christ not been begotten again through Christ? Is He not the imperishable seed of God. This passage says that we have been begotten again through the LIVING and abiding Logos of God. Is that not the Son of God?

No, not necessarily. The seed and the logos could just as easily (and more likely) be the message of the Gospel being sown which begets disciples...

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11

In him you also, when you heard the word (the logos) of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

"Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message (the logos) of this salvation. Acts 13:26

Finally, John the author of Revelation sees a vision of Christ. He states that His NAME is "The Logos of God":

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (Re 19:11-13)

I take back and correct what I said before about logos never referring to a person. Rev 19:13 is the ONLY place I'm aware of where logos refers to a person, but notice that here, Jesus is not a pre-existent being. He is called the logos because he spoke the words of God; He proclaimed the good news of the kingdom. Obviously He did this after his birth, during his earthly ministry, not as a pre-existing being.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.[/i ]Deut 18:18

but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose." Luke 4:43

God, in these last days, has spoken to us by His Son.
________________

I agree with the points you made about the Greek sentence structure and the definite article, but what I said about Luther preferring to use the word "it" instead of "him" was in regard to verses 3 and 4, which I did not make clear.
________________

we could simply translate it as "The Logos was divine"

I agree, that is what I said: "In the beginning was the logos, (the expression, thought, reason, plan, utterance of God), and that logos (expression, etc) was with God (like wisdom was said to be "with God"), and the logos was God (or divine as some translations render it)"

Jose

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Jose]

Just a technical point, it's more literally:
τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱω (Heb 1:2 NA28)
he has spoken to us in his son

That's fine, I just happened to have copied and pasted from the ESV.

[Paidion]

Although the primary meaning of the Greek word ἐν is "in", it also frequently means "by" or "with".

The King James translation renders it as "in" 1902 times, "by" 163, "with" 140, "among" 117, "at" 113, "on" 62, "through" 39, and miscellaneous other renderings 265.

[Paidion]

Jose, according to Jesus, Abraham saw Him, and He existed before Abraham. There's nothing figurative about that.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (John 56-59 ESV)

Jesus, although a different person from the Father, shares the name "Yahweh" with the Father. He was the Yahweh who remained behind with Abraham while the other two persons (probably angels) went on to Sodom. Abraham addressed Him as "Yahweh". After Yahweh finished speaking with Abraham, He went on to Sodom. Then we come to the amazing verse which indicates that TWO individuals are called "Yahweh", one on earth and the other in heaven.

Then the Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven. (Genesis 19:24)

The Yahweh who had spoken to Abraham went on to Sodom and Gomorrah and was the means of the fire which destroyed the cities. The Yahweh in heaven was the source.

[jriccitelli]

This example from Hebrews does not prove to me that Jesus is the word being spoken of. I don't think this is meant to be taken literally. Is a person sharp like a sword that pierces marrow? Isn't this more likely talking about the effect God's word has on us when we come in contact with it? God's word can be alive and discerning if it is a "personification" without it needing to be a literal person’ (Jose)

‘Is a person sharp like a sword that pierces marrow?’ A person 'can' be a thing though, although the phrase is obviously a simile (i.e. Is a word like a sword that pierces marrow?) A literal person 'can' smash and pierce literal objects, I have seen this happen, but I never have seen a word pierce an object. And note a literal person (God) spoke the words, and now we are seeing ‘the’ literal person who spoke Gods Words: Jesus. Jesus spoke to Abraham, to Jacob, to Moses, to David, to Daniel, to the Prophets.

If I had spoken to you for years by phone, and now you see me in person, you could say: now I see the things you spoke of, commanded, and said you would do, performed in the flesh. That is a simple way to say it, but the terminology and reverence attached to Gods Word, give His Word a unique nature. Gods Word speaks of Gods supreme command and definite ability, it is not like the words of any other being. Gods Word is unique to Himself, and tied to Him, so much that the Word is a definition of His nature, just as the terms Holy, True and Immortal. So too, Jesus’ Words are Holy, True, immortal, eternal, and they are life: just as Jesus words are Life, and He is The Life:
‘It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life’ (John 6:63)
‘For it is not an idle word for you; indeed it is your life. And by this word you will prolong your days in the land, which you are about to cross the Jordan to possess’ (Deuteronomy 32:47)

No, not necessarily. The seed and the logos could just as easily (and more likely) be the message of the Gospel being sown which begets disciples... (Jose)

This is symbolic language that explains something that is real. Disciples and born again believers are real things, and Jesus is a real ‘thing’. His Word is Spirit and His Spirit is a real thing. His Spirit is a real thing and His real Spirit produces real offspring, and we are really born again when His real Spirit really resides in us. So His Word is a real thing because Jesus is a real thing, albeit, Jesus is also Spirit.

He proclaimed the good news of the kingdom. Obviously He did this after his birth, during his earthly ministry, not as a pre-existing being “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him” Deut 18:18 (from Joses post)

Note Jesus is the one who spoke these Words to Moses, that is the point, Jesus is YHWH, and that is what makes sense of the phrase “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us”. Gods Words became incarnate, and they were not only hearing the Words of God, they were now looking at the words being done, acted out, fulfilled, right in front of them, in the flesh: As only God could do. They were looking at the Word of life:

'What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us' (1 John 1)

[jriccitelli]

Nice selection of verses above brother Alan.
And Homer, i did not miss your point, from page 8:

Something that has not been mentioned here, unless I missed it, is the question of how Jesus was born a male. We know that the female parent only has XX chromosomes and human males have XY. The baby can not be male without the Y which must be provided by the father. Now since Mary was a virgin and her conception was when the Holy Spirit came upon her (provided the Y) wasn't the baby Jesus at the same time both human and deity? He was male, after all.

I don't have a good answer, except that since Eve came from Adam, maybe God did some reverse engineering at this point.