Understanding of John 16:13

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I'd like to just add a few thoughts here.

First, I believe as others do here that this passage, while directed toward the apostles, is also indirectly a promise to us as well (Acts 2:38-39). The same Spirit which guided the apostles, also guides every other regenerated believer. I think everyone has the capability available to them of discovering the truth on all issues God intended us to know.

I also believe as Chriscarani does that there is a degree that most (if not all) beleivers suppress the truth because of Satanic/demonic deception and our own commitments to theological systems. I think division in the body of Christ is one of Satan's chief objectives in hindering the work of God. I don't think that even the apostles were immune to this. Peter, apparently began falling into this trap with the Judaizers of his day and Paul had to publicly rebuke him for it (Gal 2). Also, we see Paul and Barnabas splitting up over a disagreement that obviously was not Spirit led (Acts 15).

As far as the trustworthiness of the apostles doctrine, I think it may be a combination of having sat under Jesus' teaching for over 3 years straight and also a supernatural inspiration that was specific to their calling as apostles (I'm thinking mostly of Paul here). Although they didn't always exhibit understanding of Jesus' teachings, they still had it 'hidden in their heart' for the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning to it in due season (kind of like the time released 'revelations' we seem to get when we read the bible). The fact that their doctrines do not contradict each other (as ours do) also attests to the fact that they were Spirit led in establishing them.

Most of us today know pressures to adhere to certain systems of theology and we would all do well to try and shed that tendency and allow the Spirit to guide us in all truth. This is the primary thing that originally attracted me to Steve's ministry because more than anyone else I know, he tries not to be committed to any views or systems, but only to truth. It's only with this commitment that the Spirit is able to lead us in all truth.

That's my take on it anyway. Thoughts?

1+ Christopher.

I wish I could put my thoughts into words like you guys can. I have some of what I think to be good thoughts on certain subjects, but can never word them just right. Pro 25:11 A word fitly spoken [is like] apples of gold in pictures of silver.

[karenstricycle]

Christopher,

Good to hear from you! Hope to see you again sometime when Steve is up this way!

If you are saying the Spirit works to open our eyes to things in the scripture and works in our hearts to help us live according to the truth, I do not disagree, I just don't see John 16:13 being about that.

However, I believe the promise in John 16:13 is about something much more than this. In Acts we read of Peter being resistant to visiting the gentile Cornelius. Through miraculous visions given to both Peter and Cornelius, the Spirit speaking to Peter, and a miraculous sign at Cornelius' house, Peter, and those with him, were "lead into all truth" regarding the gentiles. This, I believe, illustrates a special leading by the Spirit.

Later, in Galatians 2, we find Paul rebuking Peter for not behaving toward the gentiles in accord with what had been revealed to Peter by the Spirit. Peter knew, or should have known, better. The Spirit had previously and miraculously shown him. Nothing miraculous in what Paul did, simply one Christian correcting another. This, I believe, illustrates one way us ordinary folk are lead into truth - by ordinary means.

The Apostles had an enormous responsibility. All revelation hadn't been provided to them by Jesus when He left them (John 16:12) but would be revealed later (John 16:14) by the Spirit. Do you believe the Spirit does this with us as it did for them?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

Christopher

You have articulated what I was basically thinking. Great job.

Brody already said what I feel about Homer’s question and that is...

“I think the John passage can be applied to Christians. I don't believe that we can "add" to scripture, as the church was built on the foundation of the Apostles and Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. I do believe that we as believers have authority to preach remission of sins to everyone who will receive Jesus as Lord.”

Homer I realized this was addressed to Christopher, but I had a few comments.

As we agreed earlier in the Apostle thread, there is a clear line between those who taught and established the foundations of the church (Apostles) and those (Ignatius
Polycarp, Clement of Rome and Papias) who were taught by them and so on. I think this separates scripture and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles into a higher category which gives it an authoritative voice. We were given an interpretive voice to understand their revelations, so that the things that were revealed to them could be revealed to us – the truth.

My point is this, I don’t think the Holy Spirit would contradict itself by teaching the Apostles one thing and then 100, 200 or 2000 years later teach us something else.

I also wanted to comment on the question of division in the church.

Mark 9:38-41
”Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”

I think Jesus makes a good point here, if you are truly in Christ you cannot speak evil of Him. To me the miracle is important here, because it speaks of an affirmation of whose name it was done. I believe Christ holds power over Christians who believe and hold to the teachings of the Bible first and foremost, regardless of their denomination. Even though their was a clear attempt to destroy the fellowship, they although separated, are still are seeking the truth, but under the headline of Lutheran, Protestant, Baptist or non-denominational, etc.. The power of God is much too strong to allow for a total defeat.

[karenstricycle]

Chriscarini,

You said:

As we agreed earlier in the Apostle thread, there is a clear line between those who taught and established the foundations of the church (Apostles) and those (Ignatius
Polycarp, Clement of Rome and Papias) who were taught by them and so on. I think this separates scripture and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles into a higher category which gives it an authoritative voice. We were given an interpretive voice to understand their revelations, so that the things that were revealed to them could be revealed to us – the truth.

My point is this, I don’t think the Holy Spirit would contradict itself by teaching the Apostles one thing and then 100, 200 or 2000 years later teach us something else.

I think the problem of John 16:13 is much bigger than realized, bigger than someone claiming they have been shown by the Spirit what a certain passage means. The Gospel can be added to while not being contradicted, as the Roman Catholics, and others, have done. (purgatory, penance, praying to Mary and the saints, ad infinitum.) Seems to me the understanding most seem to have of John 16:13 certainly lends support to their pretensions, and would support an infallible Pope, and the Catholics do in fact cite this verse as authority for their (the heirarchy) infallibility.

While the Catholics take it in a corporate sense, applying it perpetually to their church, you take it individually, and I take it as limited to those to whom it was spoken, which in my opinion, is safer ground.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

In Acts we read of Peter being resistant to visiting the gentile Cornelius. Through miraculous visions given to both Peter and Cornelius, the Spirit speaking to Peter, and a miraculous sign at Cornelius' house, Peter, and those with him, were "lead into all truth" regarding the gentiles. This, I believe, illustrates a special leading by the Spirit.

You're right, it was a special leading by the Spirit. But again, I think Peter and the other Jewish Christians may have needed a little extra kick to accept Jesus' previous teachings on the subject. He spoke to them of the Gentiles coming into the kingdom before:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

Luke 13:29
29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
NKJV

Later, in Galatians 2, we find Paul rebuking Peter for not behaving toward the gentiles in accord with what had been revealed to Peter by the Spirit. Peter knew, or should have known, better. The Spirit had previously and miraculously shown him. Nothing miraculous in what Paul did, simply one Christian correcting another. This, I believe, illustrates one way us ordinary folk are lead into truth - by ordinary means.

I think you're right again. But I think the Spirit may have been speaking to Peter through Paul. I think there are some things that seem ordinary to us but are actually God using them to speak to us. This is being led by the Spirit in also, in my opinion.

The Apostles had an enormous responsibility. All revelation hadn't been provided to them by Jesus when He left them (John 16:12) but would be revealed later (John 16:14) by the Spirit. Do you believe the Spirit does this with us as it did for them?

That's a good point. Jesus did say that He hadn't revealed everything to them yet. However, I still believe that the Holy Spirit still reveals knowledge to us, only it's not on par with the apostles (which is why the bible is still the final authority on truth).

I wish I had more time now to continue with this thought, but I have to go now. I'll try to pick it up later.

Ciao for now.

Lord bless.

[karenstricycle]

Christopher,

You wrote:

But I think the Spirit may have been speaking to Peter through Paul. I think there are some things that seem ordinary to us but are actually God using them to speak to us. This is being led by the Spirit in also, in my opinion.

I couldn't agree with you more!

You also wrote:

However, I still believe that the Holy Spirit still reveals knowledge to us, only it's not on par with the apostles (which is why the bible is still the final authority on truth).

This is very close to what I am contending for! A devoted Christian lady I know says God speaks to her through His word - the Scriptures.

Consider that in the discourse in John Jesus makes a parallel statement to John 16:13. In John 14:26 Jesus said to them "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things...." which sounds remarkably similar to John 16:13, as though it might apply to us also, except Jesus continued to say "...and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you", which rules out any application to us.

Homer

[Guest]

I'm usually hesitant to jump into these discussions, but I wanted to at least say that after reading Homer's argument and everyone's responses I think I agree with Homer (at least as of now - I feel like my opinion on just about anything could change at any time!)

When I read the rest of what Jesus said to His disciples in John 16:13-16 it seems that we wouldn't be able to apply the rest of the "you"s to all believers...

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me."

In my mind though, this verse not applying to all believers doesn't mean that the Spirit doesn't guide or lead all believers. Just not in the same way that He did with the apostles, since they were the authors of Scripture.

I think Homer's point may have been (correct me if I'm wrong) that what this Scripture is NOT saying is that we can say, "Well, the Spirit will lead me into all truth and He has shown me that such and such theology is true." Or "He has led me to believe such and such." If we are convinced of something through the Scriptures that He inspired then amen! But what is commonly done (as we've all seen) is using this verse as an excuse to believe what we are most comfortable with.

In saying all of that, I don't want to not apply this verse to everyone just because people may abuse it. I just don't see where the context necessitates it.

Also, Homer's point about if it means "towards all truth" then how can we use this promise by Jesus as proof that what the apostles wrote was absolutely true (what if they were being lead "towards" the truth, but when, say, Peter wrote his epistles he wasn't quite there yet?)

Also, if this same exact promise applies to all believers then couldn't we all claim truth from the Spirit on par with Scripture? But yet if that promise was to the apostles then it would make sense that the same Holy Spirit that led them into the truth to write, would lead us to read that truth and believe.

Like I said, I definitely could be wrong and I find my opinions changing rather often, so feel free to tear my argument apart!

(Even after going through and reading this again, I am asking myself, "What about Paul?... the promise wasn't spoken directly to him, but yet we would probably include him here... ")

[Guest]

It really annoys me how frequently people use this verse to back up their opinions!

[Guest]

Homer and Rae,

You both make a great case and I agree with your arguments!

However, I still think there is a sense in which this verse can indirectly apply to believers in the way I stated in my original post in this thread. I don't limit the Spirit "guiding us in all truth" to inspiration alone. The Spirit guides in all truth in many ways, including circumstances, conscience, other people, scripture, etc. But we've already agreed on that point.

Rae,
I wholeheartedly agree with you that some abuse the idea of an internal witness of the Spirit to justify their stubborn adherence to theological systems. That was the same point I was trying to make when I said that we often suppress the truth through commitments to theological systems. You said it much better than I.

I'd like to re-iterate that I think that all believers are capable of discovering the truth the God intends for us to know. A large percentage of theology is mostly peripheral in my opinion.

I'd also like to ask a famous question, "What is truth"? Is it not that which sets us free to love God and to live lives pleasing to Him? Certainly the Holy Spirit does that in each of us. In my early days as a Christian, many of my convictions came before I knew of any scripture that supported it. There were things in my life I knew were wrong that I had no guilt about whatsoever before I was converted.

But I see your point about the promise of inspiration here and I do agree with you both.

Thanks for an enlightening discussion.

Lord bless.

P.S. Homer, you wrote:

Good to hear from you! Hope to see you again sometime when Steve is up this way!

That would be great! Hope it's sooner than later.

[Guest]

Do you think this could possibly be a case where the conclusion that we have come to is true, but the proof text used maybe should not be what causes someone to come to that conclusion, or maybe is not the best defense (or even a defense at all) for that conclusion?