God's Promises and His Imminent Return

[_Sean]

Hi there,

These "God told me to..." issues are always fun.

I would ask two questions. Why does God have a need for a building? Will you be going into debt to do so? Is there something you are not doing now as far as fellowship, ministry and outreach that cannot be done until the building is erected? If you're doing it now, why the need for a building? If you're not doing it now, why would God want a memorial to disobedience? Will the building be open 24 hours a day, or only when God is there? Is the completed building a sign of His return?

Ask some of those questions publicly, and God might be telling your pastor some things He knows about you.

And I was kidding in some of those questions. I'll leave it to you to guess which ones.

JD

LOL!

I have to laugh, my church is going through the same thing. It's called God's Vision. And were warned about "satan rearing his ugly head" during this time.

Aaron,
Here is where I have trouble. The Bible says that the gathering of money was for the purpose of equality, as in, if there are poor then feed them. If someone is hurt or lost their job, those who have extra help those who are in need. There is never mention of collecting funds to build buildings. This puts a huge financial burden on the the people. Instead of equality, it's pressing people into service so as to have a place of worship. Yet Jesus said that we shouldn't be worshiping in "places" but in spirit and truth.

Now, there is nothing wrong with buildings. If people want to get together and donate time and money to have a building, that's great. But to go in debt millions of dollars is unbiblical and puts the congregation into bondage.

I've seen much "convincing" being given to provide funds for the building project. To me, if people are being told this is God's vision, to step out on faith, etc in an effort to get people to give money they wouldn't otherwise give to a cause that is never mentioned in scripture then there are two problems. First, money is being diverted away from were it's suppose to go (any who are in need, missionaries, etc). Second, it causes people to give under compusion, something forbidden by Paul. Why? If you do something that is not of faith, just because "every one else is doing it" or "it's what God want's you to do" then it's sin. Anything that's not done in faith is sin.

These are my main concerns with building a church building.

I figure that if we first seek the kingdom of God then anything needed for the growth of the church will be added. So if a building in necessary for future salvation of souls, then we need to do little more than ask in faith and God will provide. Jesus multiplied loaves by a miracle, not by asking the five thousand to fork over more tithes.

It's also noteworthy that when Jesus was asked if He paid the temple tax by Peter, he told Peter that the sons were exempt. Yet this was part of the law, to collect this tax for upkeep of the temple. Jesus paid it for Himself and Peter, but no one else, and interestingly He didn't pay out of the money bag. He worked a miracle to get the money.

So are we today obligated to pay the modern day temple tax?

[Guest]

It's hilarious how you all seem to know what God isn't doing to save souls. Such as there's no way He would want His people to build a building so that many could gather together. You all have seemed to taken the first Church model to an extreme. You can say that God doesn't speak these things to people if you wish. However you are wrong. God does still give us tasks to accomplish.

Meeting in small buildings or homes is a great thing to do and is a way of ministry. Also meeting in large buildings is a way for ministry to be accomplished. We are planning on doing both.

If you can all just get out of the first century and use the tools we now have in our possession you might find they are useful.

JD. You do not know my Pastor. You can imply He's making things up. You are dead wrong. I know the man very well and would trust Him with anything. We are like family. So to say that He would say God is speaking about me if I brought up some of your questions is just out of line. I would never speak against a man of God I did not know anything about.

This site seems to be very much a dead zone spiritually and nothing but an overintellectualizing of everything. I originally thought I could get some spiritual insight around here but I seem to get a lot of uppity aloofness (except for from a maybe half of the participants).

This will likely be my last post.

[Guest]

AARONDISNEY, please don't get discouraged, brother. Those of us who frequent this community believe in challenging certain notions of the modern church, but I agree with you. We know that the early church was very different from our modern church. I think this is both good and bad, depending on the issue. I believe we have more resources available to us today so we need to utilize them. However, we needn't do so at the expense of certain unchanging moral commands. God looks at the heart and motive for what we do (the inward man). Two ministers can build a church building for their congregation, but one may have impure motives while the other is wholly devoted to God. They are both doing the same thing, but with different motives. I believe the motive is what God looks at here. Remember the guy who criticized the sinful woman who poured expensive perfume on our Lord? She was criticized because of pragmatism... the idea that she should've sold it and given that money to the poor. But that woman was doing the will of God, completely absent of pragmatism.

The early church had many faults so we should never base every decision on early tradition in all cases. Rather, we should base everything we do on this idea: Is what we're doing going to bring glory to the Lord? I often feel that Christians are too pragmatic at times (myself included). Many times we wish for the fellowship we read about in scripture and how the eary church went about doing things. I know many Christians fume at the idea of power point sermons and modern worship music but I have to scratch my head at this. It reminds me of certain denominations that believe dressing like they're from the 1940's is what God wants. I believe we are called to use everything we have, be it technology or modern vocabulary, to reach the lost. Paul used several tactics on Mars Hill to reach the Athenians. Jesus used examples of farming when talking about certain truths because he was talking to farmers. This isn't adapting ourselves to the culture, we already live in a certain culture. God is aware of this. We are a people set apart, a Kingdom of priests and a light to the world so we can't lose our distinction. But we shouldn't rebel against all things modern either.

I realize this has strayed from the original post but all these things are related. I realize there is a trend in the modern church to "hear from God" about everything and this is taken to extremes. The opposite view is also taken to extremes at times. For me, it helps to realize that we are accountible to God so we should always serve him with pure motives. Whether or not it's good for Christians to build a bigger building (or a building at all) depends entirely upon the motive of those servents. If God accepts them, we should too. If their motives are corrupt, it will be made known in time. But let's not banish all modern approaches just because they differ from first century customs. In the same way, we shouldn't accept all modern customs blindly but challenge them in honest and loving debate. To me, this forum is a great place for that.

[Guest]

Hi Aaron,

Please don't take offense to this, but you did post the question asking for opinions and from what I can tell, that is what you recieved. Opinions are just like belly-buttons, we all have one . It's up to each of us to sort out the various opinions and biblical data and try to discover for ourselves what is truth.

You wrote:

This site seems to be very much a dead zone spiritually and nothing but an overintellectualizing of everything. I originally thought I could get some spiritual insight around here but I seem to get a lot of uppity aloofness (except for from a maybe half of the participants).

I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritual insight", but it seems to me that is the job of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13), not bible forums. This is merely a place where people come together to get their questions answered and exchange their viewpoints on the deeper things of God and His word. It is an entirely different thing to take that information and "hide it your heart" for God to use in your life and guide you in the truth. "Spiritual insight", I believe, comes from knowing the truth, and being set free by it (John 8:31-32). Please do not be too offended when people see things differently than you.

Just my opinion

[_Sean]

It's hilarious how you all seem to know what God isn't doing to save souls. Such as there's no way He would want His people to build a building so that many could gather together. You all have seemed to taken the first Church model to an extreme. You can say that God doesn't speak these things to people if you wish. However you are wrong. God does still give us tasks to accomplish.

Meeting in small buildings or homes is a great thing to do and is a way of ministry. Also meeting in large buildings is a way for ministry to be accomplished. We are planning on doing both.

If you can all just get out of the first century and use the tools we now have in our possession you might find they are useful.

JD. You do not know my Pastor. You can imply He's making things up. You are dead wrong. I know the man very well and would trust Him with anything. We are like family. So to say that He would say God is speaking about me if I brought up some of your questions is just out of line. I would never speak against a man of God I did not know anything about.

This site seems to be very much a dead zone spiritually and nothing but an overintellectualizing of everything. I originally thought I could get some spiritual insight around here but I seem to get a lot of uppity aloofness (except for from a maybe half of the participants).

This will likely be my last post.

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but are you offended because some of us have a different opinion than yours?

Paul said where the spirit is, there is liberty. Do we not have the liberty to discuss these matters?

My main concern is to stand before the judgement seat of Christ and Him say "Why did you spend your time/money doing something I never said to do"?

Should my answer be "Culture and traditions of men"?

This is the very thing Jesus condemned the Pharisees for. Jesus didn't excuse them because the times had changed. They rather seemed shocked that Jesus didn't accept the traditions set forth by the elders.

Sorry if I have offended you.

[Guest]

Ugh, I guess I've done it again. A little humor comes back to bite me. I should stick to corny humor. How do we know God is a baseball fan? Because in Genesis, He said, "In the big inning." Get it? Big inning, i.e. beginning? I repent. Thank God we serve a dreary Jesus who never used humor. (I know, it's my kind of humor that's offensive.)

Aaron, perhaps emoticons aren't enough. I really was kidding. Sorta. I suppose bigger lecture halls are a good thing.

I'm just waiting anxiously for the first pastor to tell his congregation that God has told him all the money is going outside of the building and salary - feeding, clothing, helping pay the bills of folks who are struggling both inside and outside the body of Christ. "God has told me that all of our giving needs to go directly to the aid of people."

One of the things I enjoy about this forum is that it is a safe place to work out questions, doubts and controversial issues without getting flamed or looked at weird. It really is fun. Once I got beyond the shock trauma of seeing people with whom I disagree can actually still be saved, I was good to go.

Now, God told me to tell your pastor that he should tithe 10% to the Narrow Path. Kidding, kidding...

JD

[Guest]

Hey JD Personally I like your humor. Sarcastic humor has always been my downfall. My wife never gets me and it usually gets me in some kind of hot water with her. Oh well I just say get a life and that always helps a bunch. Also my kids when growing up always thought my facial expressions were serious ones but usually it was just a look so that they would not know if I was serious or not. My eldest still has trouble knowing when I am kidding around. That tends to work in my favor but then I get "THE LOOK" from my wife. My youngest pretty well knows when I am just being funny because my nostrils flare. That must be a trait because My dad was that way as well.
Maybe we could compare notes someday.

[Guest]

Thanks, Allyn. My wife is constantly reminding me that my oldest child thinks I'm serious when I'm joking. The other night I told her (my daughter, not my wife), that I was a superhero sent to save the world. I think she was genuinely concerned for a second. Alas, there is sin in many words, and humor is a tool to be used wisely. Thankfully, I am a very wise person, ahem.

Aaron, God has told me that that was not going to be your last post.

Seriously though, you referred to the forum as a spiritual deadzone. What does a spiritual person look like? Is he cloaked only in the garment of sentimentality, or does he wear a technicolor coat of wit, reason and passion, woven from the fruits of the Spirit? To rob from Samuel Taylor Coleridge: Metaphors, metaphors, everywhere!

As to your original post, God often asked, "Where is the house you will build for me?" Jesus said there would come a day when people would neither worship on one mountain (where the temple was) or the other. We are in that day, where the place of worship is not the issue, but the person, the object of our worship, Jesus, is. In fact, this was always God's heart.

There are Biblical reasons people have for being unmoved by men declaring that God has told them to erect buildings. I am in that camp, although I am neither for or against buildings. I suppose I am only non-plussed by those who equate meeting halls with "God's work". Even more agitated by calling a building "God's house" and declaring that at a time or place, I am "entering into His presence". You have not done so here, but I am speaking from years of experience as a Christian.

I cannot understand your own situation, except to the degree that you reveal it, but some Christians could give counterarguments to all the reasons you have given for need for a larger building, if any building at all.

I am sincerely sorry that you fret about the imminent return of Christ because of this project.

If we are able, with Jesus, to laugh at our foibles, it makes the journey through a painful life a little more pleasant.

JD

[Guest]

No, don't feel bad JD. I can't think that Jesus and the apostles didn't joke with each other.

AARONDISNEY has described his shepherd and the various groups meeting under his leadership. For maybe the 1/2 of us that AARONDISNEY described, I'm sure that we are very analytical in comparing current practices with those described in scripture. To answer his question, I thought it reasonable to question the assumptions he made. While I have no reason to question AARONDISNEY'S integrity nor that of his shepherd, don't I have the responsibility to see if a building program reflects proper stewardship of the things entrusted to the body of believers? As I said in a previous post, there are both good and bad points to erecting a building but it appears to be one of those things that Paul would have included in his teaching to the Corinthians re: making up one's mind--like the Sabbath or meat sacrificed to idols.

From reading some of Christopher's posts, I get the feeling that some of us are pretty careful right now about what we hear. I believe we're probably riding in the same boat. Within the last 2 weeks, I was stopping on some of the televangelists to see what they're saying currently. Steve Munsey told me that an angel would bring a miracle to my door in 3 weeks if I sent $500 to a particular ministry. Rod Parsley told me that he needed 10 people to step out on faith and send his ministry $8,500 (or 100 @ $850 or 1,000 @ $85). A fellow who formerly preached at a gathering I attended said he heard God's voice tell him that he was to start preaching. He heard the voice while in the shower and got out to see who was in the room. The same guy taught an Easter morning lesson that consisted of him telling us that he couldn't really add anything to what we already knew of the story. Took him 5 minutes to do that. He was right. He couldn't add anything.

I say that to say this--do we consider AARONDISNEY's pastor and the evangelist who visited his church to be prophets and should we test them in light of Deuteronomy 18:21-22? I think that may be what he was asking. I can see his concern since v.20 says :

" But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."

If AARONDISNEY is still with us, I hope you see why some of us put so much emphasis on checking scripture for precedents.

livingink

[Guest]

I think it is fair to say the New Testament neither advocates nor forbides church buildings. The question then to my mind is this: Is it expedient or good stewardship to build a building? In many cases it would seem to be so. A building can be used for both worship services and charitable work that might be difficult to do otherwise.

Many church buildings seem to be monuments to someones' ego. I was once driving down a street in Madera. Calif. when I saw some mexicans hard at work with hoes weeding the dirt parking lot of their shabby church building and I wondered why the many prosperous churches in town with fine buildings didn't help them have something better. After all, they are their brothers and sisters. Oh, I get it, not the same denomination! Can't be helping them! Might need to build something more impressive for ourselves.