Elect in the Son- By Robert Shank

[Guest]

Homer and others,

Thanks for your contribution. I'm going to dig into my archives and post Tim Warner's elaboration on Hebrews 10:

"When Paul wrote "if we sin willfully" in Heb. 10, IMO, the context absolutely demands that he was referring to a specific sin, that of NOT holding firm to our faith in the Gospel until the end. I think the Jews would definately have understood this from the statement, "he that dispised Moses Law died under two or three witnesses." As I pointed out before, this is a specific reference to Deut 17:1-6, which his readers would immediately recognize. And that passage is most definately about those who completely forsook the Covenant, and went and served other gods. It did NOT refer to those who merely broke the Sabbath or some other commandment, even willfully. And I am convinced that this is how Paul's readers would have understood this.

I am not suggesting that a Christian can sin willfully with impunity. Heb. 12 deals with the chastisement of the Father for His sons who are rebellious (as we all are in some ways).

If "sin willfully" refers to ANY willful sin, then there is no hope for any of us, because this passage allows no means of restoration at all! To commit one sin willfully is to be eternally damned! That goes against the entire NT teaching.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus urged us to "be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." In other words, God's working in us bringing us to sanctification is to conform us to be exactly like God in character. Yet, in the very same sermon, Jesus says that we must forgive as many times as it takes. Jesus told Peter that forgiving the same person merely 7 times was not sufficient. Rather, forgiving him 70 x 7 was required. In other words, infinate forgiveness for the one who asks forgivness in sincerity. If Jesus requires US to forgive those who trespass against us an infinate number of times, and if Jesus is trying to conform us to God's character, what does that say about God's character and forgivness? His grace is huge, and His mercy is everlasting. As David says, He remembers that we are just dust. And David knew, because he sinned willfully (adultery and murder). This is not a licence to sin. As Paul says, should we sin that grace may abound??? God forbid! But the whole point of this New Covenant teaching, that makes it so much better than the former covenant, is that our service to God is now motivated by LOVE and GRATITUDE for what Christ has done for us, and NOT out of fear of judgment. Under the Law, the people lived in fear of judgment, and obedience was demanded. Yet, those who really understood the principles of the Law, and grew to understand the heart of God, like David, realized that God merely used the Law as a tool to bring His people into a relationship with Him. The New Covenant is a much better deal than the Law. We are now the sons of God. And God is our Father. Would you kill or throw your son out of your family if he disobeyed you willfully? I wouldn't. If I did, I wouldn't have any more kids. I wouldn't be a "Father" I would be a monster. Rather, like a good Father, God disciplines His sons and daughters, to force them into a decision to either submit to Him, or else rebel to the point where they leave of their own free will. God is not called "our Father who art in heaven" for nothing."

http://p079.ezboard.com/flasttrumpetfrm ... c&index=13

Brian

[_Steve]

Hi TK,

I want to clarify my position about the lapses in the early church. I don't know what my exact wording may have been in my "Church History" lectures, since I have not heard them for several years, but I know my views then were pretty much the same as now.

Those who denied Christ under torture were considered (by the early church) to have ceased to be saved, as a result of their denials. The question of their restoration to fellowship, upon later repentance, was a problem that not every church leader agreed about. My own view is that only God knows the heart, and He alone can judge ultimately how much a verbal denial may count for, in any given case. For example, Richard Wurmbrandt told of pastors who were so mentally disabled by their torturers drugging them that they came out and denied the faith. I hardly think God is going to damn them for such denials.

On the matter of your conduct in college, you wrote: "i still believed in my heart of hearts, but my actions did not support what i said i believed."

You wonder whether your saving faith might have been overruled by your sinful actions of the time. In my opinion, it would be more proper to suggest that your actions gave evidence that the faith you professed was not of a saving sort—since whatever faith you professed to have clearly didn't "save" you from your sins (Matt.1:21).

A verbal denial of Christ is not the only kind of denial one may commit. Paul says, of certain people in the church, "They profess to know God [i.e., verbally], but in works they deny Him" (Titus 1:16). It is probable that, whatever your professed beliefs may have been at that time, you were denying Christ (that is, His Lordship in your life) by your behavior.

I don't think that a sin, or even the accumulation of a certain number of sins, will damn a person who truly believes in a saving manner. However, the presence or absence of such saving belief is indicated by actions (James 2).

Stealing paper clips is a sin such as a believer might mindlessly commit, and more scandalous sins are sometimes committed by believers in moments of weakness or self-deception (e.g., David's or Peter's sins). The action that most proves the presence of saving faith is that of repentance upon the realization that a sin has been committed.

A true believer will sin far less than he/she would sin without faith in Christ, because he/she hates sin and craves holiness. This is the surest proof of a regenerated heart. This hatred for sin will inevitably lead to repentance when one is convicted of sins committed, and will always result in the sincere resolve to live a holy life in the sight of God.

Thus I do not see the evidence of salvation to be tied to the precise number, or even the magnitude, of sins committed, but rather, it is seen in the possession of a regenerated heart, which hates sin and loves holiness—because it loves God.

[Guest]

Hi brian--

believe me, i hear what you are saying. but the problem comes in "talking the talk" but not "walking the walk." if i profess to believe in christ as my savior, but i live like a heathen, then am i a christian? i dont believe that a sin here and there, even wilfull sins, causes anybody to "lose" their salvation because, as you pointed out, we all do this. heaven would be a mighty empty place.

but its clear that more is required than simply "belief." or said alternatively, TRUE belief will result in producing a disciple.

there are many people who, if asked, would say that they are a christian because "when i was little i said a prayer in sunday school." however, they dont go to church now and they live no differently than the world; they certainly are not a disciple of Jesus. in my opinion, those people are not "saved."

i dont believe that God is "chomping at the bit" to catch us sinning wilfully so that he can snatch away our salvation. that would indeed be a dismal view of the God and is not true. but neither will he be mocked.

TK

[Guest]

Interesting stuff. I think I agree with Steve here. it seems to me (basedon passages such as James 2 and Matthew 7) that a life characterised by deliberate sin is probably evidence of a heart lacking in genuine faith in Jesus.

[Guest]

i must have been typing my last post as Steve was typing his.

Thanks, Steve, for the clarification. I agree with what you have stated.

This seems to create a problem for christian teenagers and college students "in rebellion". unfortunately, many Christians believe that "every kid needs to /will go through a period of rebellion and hopefully return to their faith after they mature a bit. i think this is a very dangerous attitude for parents/loved ones to have.

TK

[Guest]

TK,

Brother, hear me when I say that I have seldom been accused of promoting "easy believism" or "just say the prayer and stick the insurance card in your back pocket."

I, too, believe the motto which states: "it is faith alone that justifies, but still that faith that justifies is not alone." A true believer will have fruit, will love God and the brethren, and will desire personal holiness.

What I'm arguing against are those who claim that salvation is maintained by living a holy life and not falling into sin. I don't accept this. Salvation is maintained by continuing to cast ourselves upon Jesus, with faith that He is indeed our Savior.

A true Christian will desire to live holy and attempt to abstain from sin, but the focus is wrong if we make this the source of our salvation instead of Jesus. My life will never be good enough to merit God's accpetance of me.

Brian

[Guest]

Hey Brian--

i agree with everything you just wrote. Amen!

TK

[Guest]

Okay, I can confirm that Elect in the Son is an excellent book. I especially like his clarification of the difference between the closely related facts of Election (which "comprehends all men potentially, no man unconditionally and the Israel of God efficiently") and Predestination:

"[E]lection is the act whereby God chose men for Himself, whereas predestination is His act determining the destination of the elect whom He has chosen. Predestination is God's predetermination of the eternal circumstance of election: sonship and inheritance as joint-heirs with Christ (Eph 1:5, 11) and glorification together with Christ in full conformity to His image (Rom. 8:28-30). In Ephesians 1:3-14, the election is in view in verse 4 ("he chose us in him before the foundation of the world") and the predestination is not to election and salvation, but to the circumstance of election: adoption as children of God (v.5) and participation in an eternal inheritance (v.11). In Romans 8:28-30, the election is concomitant with God's foreknowledge, and the predestination is not to election and salvation, but to conformity to the image of His Son (v.29), a predestination to be realised through calling, justification, and ultimate glorification (v.30)." (pp.156-157 of 1989 edition)


I'm now eagerly awaiting the arrival of "Life in the Son" (the book, not the reality, which I already have!).

[Guest]

Life in the Son arrived today. I look forward to reading it!

[Guest]

Life in the Son arrived today. I look forward to reading it!

Got mine to day too! It's alot bigger than Elect in the Son. Feedback forthcoming