Lordship Salvation (sinfulness)

[dizerner]

Our works are evidence of what we are: new creatures in Christ. We do not make ourselves new creatures by our works.

So I would say a few things. Jesus is without question both Lord and Savior. The person who will not follow Jesus is not a new creation. If we are saved by our works, grace is unnecessary and Jesus died for nothing.

well said!

[Singalphile]

Thank you, Homer. I do agree with you.

[Paidion]

If we are saved by our works, grace is unnecessary and Jesus died for nothing.

I have never met a person who thought he was "saved" (in any sense of the word) by his works.
The idea that many do so think, seems to me to be an attack against a straw man.

When we speak of salvation, the first question we must answer is "From what are we saved?
Are we essentially saved from hell? Or are we essentially saved from sin? The angel announced to Joseph, "You shall call his name "Jesus" for he will save his people from their SINS."
If we are to be saved from our sins, then somehow we must cease from our sins. If not, then we are not saved from them, or are not being saved from them.
We CAN not be saved from them by self-effort alone. But if we do nothing, God WILL not save us from them sovereignly. But when we coöperate with the enabling grace of God, we CAN be saved from them or in the process of being saved from them.

The problem we face is that when we proclaim the necessity of ceasing from sin and working righteousness, we are told, "Ahh. Trying to get to heaven by good works, are you?" whereas that is the farthest thing from our intention.

What we know is that we CANNOT do it alone, and God WILL NOT do it alone. BUT as the apostle Paul put it:

Working together with him, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

Grace is God's enablement, not ONLY God's "unmerited favour." To put the above passage in a modern manner of speaking:

We must work together with God in order to overcome sin. If we try to receive God's "unmerited favour" by doing nothing we will have received it in vain. It will avail nothing in delivering us from sin.

[RickC]

I guess the real question is whether acknowledging one's own sinfulness and need for a savior is a fundamental threshold salvation requirement essential to the gospel message, or rather a question of growing in holiness and truth.

Over the last decade or so I've been influenced by thinkers like N.T. Wright. He defines the gospel (roughly) as "the good news that the kingdom of God has come and Jesus is Lord." This, as contrasted over against classical Reformation/evangelical concepts that see the gospel as "the message that you need to repent and be saved."

'Salvation', throughout scripture, is always a 'this-world rescue'. As Paidion noted, Jesus was to have saved His people from their sins. Which Jesus did, albeit, only those of the remnant.

In what sense were they 'saved'? I'd say, literally. Actually saved from death and destruction, just as God had delivered His people in Old Testament times.

Had not that remnant of Jewish Jesus followers believed that God's kingdom was arriving and at the door, they probably would have been killed in 70AD (noting how 'no flesh would have been saved' had God not shortened the tribulation leading up to the fall of Jerusalem).

Can I be 'saved'? Not literally as the first generation of believers were. Keeping in mind that their (actual, physical, this-world) salvation came during a time of great wrath and destruction.

In any event, growing up Pentecostal, I know what people mean by "getting saved", etc. I still say I'm that sometimes, usually around people who know what I mean.

But these days I see myself more as a beneficiary, a member of the community that traces its roots back to Jesus, who rescued His people from bondage into the kingdom of God.

When I talk with people about being or becoming a Christian, I emphasize conversion to God and His kingdom. I seldom mention "getting saved" unless I'm discussing how the kingdom got here, going over the above 'history of salvation'-- to the Jews first, and also to the Greeks and Americans!

I(f this doesn't make much sense, I have insomnia).
But I hope it does, thanks!

[Homer]

Hi Rick,

You wrote:

But these days I see myself more as a beneficiary, a member of the community that traces its roots back to Jesus, who rescued His people from bondage into the kingdom of God.

When I talk with people about being or becoming a Christian, I emphasize conversion to God and His kingdom. I seldom mention "getting saved" unless I'm discussing how the kingdom got here, going over the above 'history of salvation'-- to the Jews first, and also to the Greeks and Americans!

I'm not knowledgeable re preterism to any extent so I may not be responding to what you believe. I see God sovereignly in control of history to the extent that the events in the OT serve as a sort of metaphor pertinent to us. Paul indicated as much regarding the history of Sarah and Hagar (Gal. 4:21-31) and Israel wandering in the desert (1 Corinthians 10:1-12). Christians have long seen the exodus/entering the promised land as a sort of metaphor for our journey from slavery in sin to our ultimate goal, heaven (whatever that is thought to be), the promised land. But being freed from slavery to sin and into the kingdom, if the metaphor holds, is not reaching the promised land. We still have to pass through the desert. Our great hope is future.

Paul seems to have thought this life was a battle, a great struggle, with his hope resting beyond this life. Perhaps they were wrong, but I suspect the great majority of Christians through history have thought this way. It is only in modern times with plentiful food and good health care in a large part of the world that the hope of something better beyond this life isn't as important as it once was. For most of history the majority of people suffered a great deal.

[RickC]

I'm not knowledgeable re preterism to any extent so I may not be responding to what you believe. I see God sovereignly in control of history to the extent that the events in the OT serve as a sort of metaphor pertinent to us. Paul indicated as much regarding the history of Sarah and Hagar (Gal. 4:21-31) and Israel wandering in the desert (1 Corinthians 10:1-12). Christians have long seen the exodus/entering the promised land as a sort of metaphor for our journey from slavery in sin to our ultimate goal, heaven (whatever that is thought to be), the promised land. But being freed from slavery to sin and into the kingdom, if the metaphor holds, is not reaching the promised land. We still have to pass through the desert. Our great hope is future.

The way I've been 'reading' the Bible for some time now is what Andrew Perriman calls a 'narrative-historical hermeneutic'. The NT, in particular, has taken on a new significance for me. That is, in contrast with 'doctrinal' readings that I grew up with.

In terms of preterism (partial or full), I tend to see things essentially the same as N.T. Wright and Perriman, with the exception of their being futurists (partial preterists).

Wright, most notably in his teachings on Paul and/or Romans, illustrates how OT themes such as the exodus (baptism in Romans) were fulfilled in Christ the person, and persons 'in Christ'. While both Wright and Perriman hold to an 'already/not yet' (realized/ still futurist) eschatology, I'm reasonably sure they would say The (Already) Kingdom is the culmination of all the OT promises, at least in an inaugural sense with the coming of Jesus. All of the families of the earth are blessed through Abraham's seed: Jesus. The Kingdom is now international.

"Heaven is important, but it's not the end of the world," says Wright.

In any event, Homer, I definitely don't have all the details ironed out on eschatology. I would say the main thing that has changed with me over the last few years is: I 'admire' the NT people (Jesus, NT authors, disciples, etc.) probably in much the same sense that Jews look back to Moses and the prophets. I see what has been done and focus on that. A somewhat different -- and improved -- approach than when I was a futurist (partial preterist, amillennial).

I don't know if this answers your questions or what you were wondering about, Homer. But thanks for the dialog!

[darinhouston]

Steve used to have a topical lecture on “Lordship Salvation” but I can’t seem to find it.

[darinhouston]

I think I found it.

http://youtu.be/b1RLIUjM8p4

[In2joy]

How much can I get away with and still get in?


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[Paidion]

Here's a passage from Romans 5 (ESV) that seems to say it all. I would be happy to read your exposition of this passage:

8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned — 
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.